Dr. Shawna Pandya is an aeromedical transport physician, a neurosurgery and emergency medic, leader of the an aquanaut with NASA's NEEMO analog missions, director of the International Institute for Astronautical Sciences' (IIAS) Space Medicine Group, and will be Canada's first female commercial astronaut. She's also a black belt martial artist in Taekwon-Do, an analog astronaut, and an explorer. During our interview, we discussed the path that brought her to medicine, space, and what the future holds for humans living and working offworld.
Episode 103 - Shawna Pandya
Matt: [00:00:00] The authors acknowledged that this podcast was recorded on
the traditional unseated lands of the Lekwungen peoples.
Hello and welcome back to Stories From Space. I'm your host Matt Williams,
and joining me today is a very special guest. She's an astronaut, an aquin, an
emergency aeromedical transport physician, a EKA, space medicine, a scientist
and explorer and executive director, a pilot in training, a seasoned TED speaker
and a martial artist, Dr. Shawna Pandya welcome aboard.
Shawna: Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. It's my pleasure to
be here.
Matt: Yes. Well, I know this, this has been a long time in the making and
someone who's been following you for quite a while, I gotta say, I was still
really humbled and blown away by the long, long, long list of things that you've
done.
The credentials, the titles. So my first question [00:01:00] would be, uh, when
do you sleep?
Shawna: Um, honestly, I think every day is a little bit different. I am, uh, often
in differing time zones or meeting across time zones, so there might be a lot of
coffee involved.
Matt: Coffee is good. Yeah. However, thank you so much for taking the time
today.
So, as is usually custom when talking to someone who's got a very long history
of doing things, I, I'd like to ask how it all started for you. First I wanted to
mention, uh, 'cause this kind of surprised me. You are a black belt holder in
TaeKwonDo?
Shawna: Yeah, I'm a second degree black belt in TaeKwonDo.
Matt: Wow. With the WTF I take it just based on the spelling.
Shawna: Oh, ITF.
Matt: Yeah. Oh my, me too. Oh, that's great. Yes. Uh, I've been doing that for
quite a while. Um, but not since COVID, unfortunately. Are you still training?
Shawna: No, I last was competitive in about [00:02:00] 2017. I was in the 2016
World Cup in Budapest. Um, and then I was in a surgical residency for a b brief
fit after that.
And so, um, kind of deciding the value of a hand injury in surgical training, um,
kind of made me step away from martial arts. Um, so now I just maintain my
physical fitness in the gym.
Matt: A similar story, um, right on up to the hand injury. How, how curious is
that? So in addition to TaeKwonDo, you trained in Muay Thai and we're
competitive.
And I also understand you speak multiple languages. How many, how are we
talking here?
Shawna: Yeah. Um, so Mu ay Thai is something ID I've dabbled in, I've gone
to Thailand to train in. Um, fought in an amateur fight while I was over there
and won. It was really amazing, just really cross training between disciplines.
Um, I get a lot of value out of that. And then for languages, [00:03:00] um,
English, Gujarati, French, and then have dabbled in Russian and Spanish, but,
um, very, very rudimentary in those last two.
Matt: So, and I also understand you'll be flying to space on, uh, Virgin Galactic
in 2026. Yeah. And this will be with the International Institute for Astronomical
Sciences.
So are there going to be experiments for this flight in.
Shawna: So I, I'll, I'll, I will highlight, we'll be flying as early as 2026. I, um,
just because we are waiting on the Delta class of spacecraft to roll out and
become operational. So I will temper it with that caveat. And definitely we fly
to space through research.
We believe in microgravity as the next great research laboratory at double IAS.
We've completed one successful research space flight in 2023. I was the
medical lead and one of the lead scientists on that. We had three payloads
focusing on physical sciences and biomedical monitoring, as well as [00:04:00]
glucose metabolism.
And so for this next spate of experiments, we're actually in the middle of a
down select. We held a global call for science between November, 2024 and
February, 2025, and we have stated priority areas in women's health.
Neuroscience, health technology, supporting astronaut health as well as
healthcare on earth, as well as physical sciences.
So we will be announcing the results of that competition a little bit later this
summer. And, um, that will be the priority areas that we focus on, um, within
our crew, which is an all female research crew, probably the world's. First, as
far as I've heard, um, with myself from Canada, Kelly Gerardi from the US who
was our institution's first astronaut, and Dr.
Nora Patton, an aeronautical engineer from Ireland and Ireland's first astronaut,
Matt: and you'll be, this will make you Canada's. First female commercial
astronaut. Is that correct?
Shawna: Yeah, it feels incredible to say it's not something that, you know, I
[00:05:00] knew would be part of the journey, but it feels really relevant and
really important because Canada has a history and legacy of excellence in
Astronautics, and I hope to extend that in the commercial sphere as well.
Matt: Amen. Talk up Canada please. Any chance you get? Yes. So naturally
this, this brings me back to, as I said. Can you tell us a little bit about how you
came to where you are today?
Shawna: That's a great question. So I think my story might be relatable. Like a
lot of kids. I wanted to be an astronaut when I grew up, and I was lucky enough
to be a kid growing up in the nineties in Canada when we watched Dr.
Roberta Bondar, Canada's first female astronaut, fly to space, and I thought, oh
my gosh, Canadian women could do that. I wanna do that. And so when you're a
kid, you tend to oversimplify and I thought. You know what to do, what Dr.
Bondar does. Let me study what she studied. So I knew she was a
neuroscientist, a physician, and an astronaut.
So I thought, okay, easy peasy. I'll go study neuroscience medicine and then go
be an astronaut. And that was my trajectory and [00:06:00] it seemed to, seems
to have worked out well for me.
Matt: Well, yeah. So where did you study neuroscience?
Shawna: Yeah, so I was born and raised in Canada, so, um, I moved to
Edmonton from Manitoba, Canada when I was about a year old.
And most of my schooling has been done at the University of Alberta, my
neuroscience degree. My, um, medical school and residency have been done
there. I did step away for a year to do a master's in space studies at the
International Space University in Strasburg, France, which was. Career
changing and life changing for me because I was lucky enough through that
program to intern at the European Astronaut Center, um, one of the European
space agencies, divisions in the crew medical support office.
And that was the first time that I realized that people make entire careers outta
space medicine. So this was right before medical school and I was bitten by that
space medicine bug. Heading into medical school and viewed everything I did
in medicine through that lens. And, [00:07:00] um, you know, the rest has
spiraled from there.
So, um, I guess the learning point from that is, well, it's twofold. It's, first of all,
um, to seek opportunities, um, that may be off the beaten path. Um, you know,
for me it was, it, it wasn't guaranteed that I was gonna do the space university.
Um, I was accepted to medical school in the same year and I thought.
I really believe in this. Everything I've done has been for space. Let me ask for
the medic, let me ask the medical school for permission to defer. Um, and they
did. They believed in the opportunity. And so the second lesson there is go
where you have permissive environments that will, um. Amplify your abilities,
your, that will amplify your opportunities and catalyze, um, the, the outcomes
that you wanna focus on.
And I suspect if I had been at different medical schools, I would not have been
granted that permissive. So, um, yeah, for me, you know, just taking the road
less traveled and doing so with the support of a wonderful faculty was really
instrumental into [00:08:00] getting me where I am today.
Matt: Yeah. And in fact, uh, you also interned at NASA's Johnson Space
Center.
You've tested out, uh, commercial space suits and zero gravity, and that was
during one of your many parabolic flights, I assume.
Shawna: Yes, exactly. So, you know, having this, this, this passion for space
medicine kind of really set me up for opportunities that came one after another
that really just snowballed. So, you know, after spending that summer at the
European Astronaut Center and then coming back to medical school, I really
love this area of medicine to the point where I started up a space and extreme
medicine club.
I would go to conferences, um, you know, would publish on space medicine and
it's. Um, opportunities to benefit the developing world. Was asked to make a
book chapter out of one of my conference papers on that. And so, you know, I
kept just slowly growing my, my expertise and my, my track record in this area
such that when it came time to apply to be a Canadian, [00:09:00] funded by the
Canadian Space Agency to go down to nasa, um, I was one of two Canadians
selected.
And, you know, being at Johnson Space Center was like. Being at Disneyland
for space Medicine nerds. It was just incredible. Um, so, you know, always
believe in the opportunities and the potential that they bring and don't, don't
hesitate to, to take that, you know, those, those opportunities. Um, because if
you don't, someone else will.
And so, coming back to, um, your question about the commercial spacesuit
testing. So, um, this was through double IAS, so. When I finished, uh, or when I
was in family medicine residency. So I started off in a neurosurgical residency
and then realized that, you know, it, it's a wonderful field. I, I love all my
experience and you know, the privilege of having people trust you to operate on
their brains and spines.
But, um, at the end of the day, space is where my passion was. And, uh,
neurosurgery was all encompassing. So. I made the [00:10:00] decision to come
into family medicine and was all in on space, like very, very actively started
seeking out space opportunities again. And, um, one of these was the
International Institute for Astronomical Sciences, um, formerly known as
Project Possum for those who might have been following the journey for a long
time.
And so I signed up for this program, not. Quite sure what to expect. I signed up
for the first parabolic flight campaign where they had partnered with Final
Frontier Design to test FFDs intra vehicular activity. Spacesuits, or IVA
spacesuits. And so at the time you just wanna do a good job. You're in this new
program, everything you're doing is.
Pretty much building the spacecraft on the way up, and you just wanna make
sure that you are carrying out the maneuvers and the tasks and the protocols that
you've been entrusted to carry out. And so myself and, um, my, my partner who,
with whom we flew in microgravity together with whom, you know, we were
practicing, um, all of the range [00:11:00] of motion maneuvers, everything that
we'd been tasked.
To do. We executed it. The flight was great, and then we got back down. Um,
we landed and the executive director of a a s came up to us and said, you know,
I think you're the first crew to ever have tested a commercial spacesuit in
microgravity, which was, you know, just a cherry on top of the cake. Um, it was
just, you know, not something again that we set up to do being the first, but it
was just really wonderful to have had a su, a successful test flight.
And then also, um, that accolade as well.
Matt: Yes. Naturally. I have to ask, so you've, you've been aboard the vomit
comment 12 times?
Shawna: 12, 12 times, yeah. So far. Yeah.
Matt: So, um, what's.
Shawna: You know, it's, it's impossible to be in a spacesuit and not have a giant
smile on your face. Uh, if you ever have the opportunity, I highly recommend it.
It's, you know, it's liberating, it's freeing. It's very, very, um, cool to be in the
microgravity environment. Um, [00:12:00] definitely there's. There's rookie
mistakes you can watch. Um, folks who have less experience in the
microgravity environment make. So, you know, for anyone who ever flies zero
g, highly recommend it.
Um, if you wanna keep yourself from getting sick, make sure that you are not
doing excessive head motions during the hyper gravity or two G pole. You
know, when you're. Moving your head from side to side, that's when your eyes
and your inner ear really don't like that, and that's when people tend to get sick.
Um, and then the other rookie mistake I see is once people get into
microgravity, they undo their seat belts, they bound out enthusiastically, but you
don't need that much force. You're gonna hit your head against the ceiling.
Really all you need is fingertip pressure, um, to maneuver yourself. So, um, you
know, if you can take those two, two.
Pieces of advice into account for anyone who ever wants to fly, fly zero g or
um, aspires to be in the micro environment. Hopefully that will help you out.
Myself, Kelly Ardi and Dr. Nora Patton will be flying to space with Virgin
Galactic on a [00:13:00] research flight, the double I sub Q mission as early as
2026.
Matt: So space medicine is a, a growing field. Is it not? And in fact, uh, it, it's
one of several burgeoning fields that's that's coming up because of course, all
these plans for humanity's future and space commercialization of LEO, going to
the moon, to to stay building infrastructure there, going on to Mars living and
working in space.
In fact, this is something that, uh, I myself, I, I've got a, just a, a bit of an
introduction with the High Alert Institute. Are you familiar with them? Uh,
they're one of several places that are doing space medicine certification so that
people can get training so that they can be such a thing as space doctors.
Who else is currently working on that certification for doctors in space?
Shawna: Yeah, it's, it's a bit of a wild west out there right now. So [00:14:00]
right now the only, um, medical residency and fellowship, um, opportunities
that I am aware of are both through traditional routes like aerospace medicine,
which I. Focus more on the preventative, um, aspects and then the newly
formed space medicine fellowships, um, which were kind of driven by SpaceX
and the commercial industry and their need to have, um, flight surgeons that
were trained to deal with the, um, new.
Commercial space era. So now we also see commercial, uh, we see space
medicine fellowships out of UCLA, um, the Harvard MGH Spear program
through, um, the UT Health program. And then I think there's an also an
affiliation with. The, um, APEX program out of one of the Arizona universities.
And so it's, you know, space medicine, as you say, is really rapidly evolving
and, you know, the, [00:15:00] the new areas of focus are being able to.
Deal with procedures and medical pathologies as they happen in real time. Um,
and especially as we look towards two new horizons in space medicine. Um, so
both the rise of commercial space flight and the access to space that affords, so
that brings a whole new population that would've. Potentially, perhaps
otherwise been medically disqualified through a traditional space agency
selection, which for those who don't know, are very, very rigorous.
You know, um, medical, um, wellbeing starts at selection. So these astronaut
candidates are selected very rigorous. Um, at the physiological, psychological
and physical health levels. And then the other four off horizon is looking at
exploration class missions in deep space to the moon, Mars and beyond. And so,
um, you know, at the level of the moon, you can still hope for evacuation in
three to 11 days, depending on the transport medium.[00:16:00]
Um, and your time delay is about 2.2 seconds. Um, looking at the distances.
Distances involved and probably more close to 10 seconds when you look at the
communication architectures. Um, but then when you look at the Mars scenario,
that involves a six to 48 minute round trip delay for communications, even
traveling at the speed of light, depending on the alignment of the Earth and
Mars.
And then there's also a period in which the sun sits between the Earth and Mars,
um, resulting in a two to three week communication blackout. So you really
need to. Enable your crews to act, uh, locally, to be able to, um, function
independently under a term that we call Earth Independent medical operations.
Um, so that's why we see the rise of space medicine.
Matt: Yeah. And in fact, your words there, uh, earth Independent there, that,
that is the name of the game when it comes to emissions to Mars. Bottom line,
human beings on the moon, there is the potential for telemedicine. They can
[00:17:00] be evacuated if needed. Same of course, uh, I would say applies to
LEO, but if we're gonna go to Mars or anywhere beyond there better be a doctor
on site.
Yes.
Shawna: Yes. And, and so, um, when we talk about the architecture, the
medical architecture for Mars, you know, who's destined to be on that crew, I
don't think has been entirely determined yet. If you ask a doctor, of course we're
gonna say, yeah, you definitely need a doctor. Um, but the yes and comes from,
well, what if the doctor's, the one who's a.
Looked. And so, um, there's a really cool document out there last updated in
2019 from the, um, then existent NASA exploration medical capability or
XMC. And you know, there's this whole document that's called the Medical
Concept of Operations from Mars. And then there's this really sobering table
that talks about the different phases of a Mars mission.
And it's sort of like when you're on the launch bed. Medical event. Can you
evacuate? Yes. When you're in low earth. When you're in earth orbit medical
[00:18:00] event, can you evacuate? Yes. Trans Mars Injection and Beyond
Medical event. Can you evacuate? No. So this kind of really harps on the, the
need to use emerging and enabling technologies.
Um, such as, um. AI for diagnosis, for image reading, um, to be able to bring
more diagnostic imaging capabilities with us. And it also has to abide by the
packing considerations for space. So it has to be lightweight, low mass, uh, low
volume, low power usage, easy to use, be hardy, have long shelf life and
require, require a low astronaut training time period.
Um, and so the, uh, virtual reality also can help by helping, um, astronauts.
Practice medical skills in vr, so to maintain and develop that muscle memory.
Um, so the example I like to use is, um, practicing an IV on Earth and then not
using that skill for another nine months until you get to Mars. If you haven't
practiced that skill, particularly if [00:19:00] you aren't medical, your poor
patient's gonna look like a pin cushion.
So if you could maintain that muscle me memory by practicing IV insertion in
virtual reality, that can potentially offload that risk. And so. You know that
that's part of it. Emerging technologies and then saying, well, in addition to a
physician, who else might the crew need? Everyone should be, um, ideally
trained in first aid and CPR and, um.
You might wanna have someone who has at least a high functioning paramedic
or nurse practitioner level of, um, capability. So, I mean, these are just my own
thoughts. There's a lot of cool literature out there. Um, and you know, I. The
bigger, the, the additional questions you need to ask is, you know, what are our
allowances, what is the mission, profile and duration?
Um, what is the size of the crew? And there's actually really cool, um, medical
modeling out there, again from NASA that looks at, you know, what is the. Risk
of a major medical event [00:20:00] happening over the, um, course of this
particular mission. And right now the estimate suggests that at least one major
medical event will happen per um, five year period.
Matt: No. We talked a fair bit here about the, uh, medical training in terms of
what, basically physicians in space, what to expect and so forth. One thing that
I, I've heard a, a lot more of from speaking to say the Space Generation
Advisory Council and also to the Hyler Institute, is the legality. The legal, the
lack of it basically.
Right. Currently, there is no legal precedent or, uh, legal proceedings for how to
deal with patients in space if in fact they're not astronauts. If they're civilians.
Yeah. My my understanding limited as it is, is that aboard the ISS or elsewhere,
the wellbeing of a crew [00:21:00] member is, that's subject to the nation that
sent them and their crew.
Is that correct?
Shawna: So there's a lot of ways to think about this. Um, I will kind of talk to
the reg, I will speak to the regulatory and the ethical components of this. Mm-
hmm. And so the challenge is, you know, uh, if you're a physician practicing
your job is to do no harm. And so that includes ethical questions like what is the
scope of practice?
Um, so if you have never been trained to do a thoracotomy and crack a chest.
Um, you, maybe you don't wanna do that for the first time on Mars, or maybe
it's something you learned once in training and you think it is a Hail Mary pass
and you do engage in it. Um, and so. You know, that's, that's one thing. And so
when we talk about scope of practice, one additional thing I'll add to our
previous discussion is what does the training for Mars look [00:22:00] like?
And so right now most people are very surprised to learn that there's not
guaranteed, there is no guarantee of having a physician up on the International
Space Station. Um, you have a crew medical officer who once had about. 40 to
60 hours of training. But as the astronaut curriculum has become increasingly
inflated, that has gone down closer to 15 to 20 hours.
Um, so that's fine because you have 24 7 support from mission control. You can
evacuate from the station, uh, in as little as hours. Um, but when you go to
Mars. You kind of need a little bit more expertise because you have less backup
from Earth. And so coming back into this idea of scope of practice, if you had
no medical training and you're not the crew physician or the crew, um,
paramedic, and you kind of saw a movie where they cracked a chest once, you
probably don't wanna engage in that.
And then coming back into the other ethical quandary is this idea of futility of
care. [00:23:00] So even if you do crack a chest on Mars, you are a physician
who's been trained on this, then what? Like where is your prolonged life support
capabilities? Where is your, or where is your intensive care unit? Because
maybe you've saved the patient within, you know.
To scope of a couple more minutes, but you need to have the infrastructure and
the support and the resources to be able to support, um. Very, a critically ill
patient. And so that kind of becomes part of the discussion. There's a really cool
paper out there put forward by the European Society for Aerospace Medicine on
CPR guidelines and microgravity, and they discuss exactly this.
You know, like different astronauts coming from different cultures and customs
are going to approach, um, life prolonging measures versus resuscitation versus
end of life care in different ways. So that needs to be respected. And then also
the governing principle of, um. Not engaging in futility of care.
Those are discussions [00:24:00] that need to be had, um, ahead of time. And
then also the impact on the crew of. Choosing to end lifesaving measures when
you're maybe a crew of six on Mars, you know, that will have impacts on the
crew. You know, whether you did everything possible to save your crew
member or not. Um, the entire crew is gonna feel that morally, um, they're
gonna feel that emotionally and it's also gonna impact the work rotations.
Um, and then I'll just step back and also comment on the regulatory. Um, so I
was, um, involved with the discussion on. AI applications for Space Health
recently. And, you know, there's, there's a lot of potential, but there's a lot of
pitfalls. So, for example, you might have modeled Drift as the AI tries to, um,
adapt.
Um, based on what it's been. I. Taught on Earth, or you may not have an
adequate data set because there's only been 700 people to, um, space so far, and
none of those have [00:25:00] been in deep space. Save maybe a dozen people.
Um, and it's very skewed towards men, upwards of, um, 86% men. Um, or you
may have a model that was trained on earth that may not accurate accurately
predict physiological changes in the microgravity environment.
And so. With one OFA or European Space Agency colleagues, she brought up
the um, point that within their, the within ISSA guidelines. The AI model that's
approved on Earth is the AI model that goes with you. So even if there are
changes that will accelerate and augment your crew's capabilities, if those
weren't approved, um, those don't come with you to Mars.
And some people out there might be saying, well, why don't you just upload it
to the crew data management and the amount of data that you need to support
for having a functional AI in space. Um, you don't, you cannot support that with
current. [00:26:00] Mars architecture. So there's a lot out there to think about.
Um, and it becomes, and it suddenly, it becomes apparent, you know, why
there's so much interest in space medicine and how it's evolving.
Matt: Yeah. You, you mentioned a few things there that, uh, got me thinking.
Uh, in fact when you mentioned, uh, the training, you yourself, you're a
commander of a Mars Analog Commission there at the Mars Desert Research
Station and Wow, interesting.
You're one of a small handful of people now I've talked to who, who have been
there and yeah. So was any of that focused on the medical angle of things for
going to Mars?
Shawna: You know, I think whether you're medical or not, the biggest
takeaway I have learned by being a rural emergency physician and aeromedical
transport physician, um, being the crew health and safety officer on numerous
analog missions or even a commander, um.
Or even having been on a medical [00:27:00] deployment to Ukraine, the, the
people management and the the interpersonal dynamics are super critical. So
just kind of stepping back and talking about the 50,000 foot view, um, to orient
ourselves how we think about challenges, healthcare challenges in deep space
medicine, we call this the ridge framework.
So that's radiation, isolation and confinement, distance from earth, altered
gravity and hostile environments. So the crew dynamics really are fall under the
isolation and confinement, and so you need to, what happens best is when you
can, um. Work with your crew ahead of time, you know, where you can kind of
fall into that model of forming, norming, storming, and then performing so that
you know, you know each other very well, you know how to recognize conflict
and deescalate far before you get into this, um, isolated and confined
environment.
And so, um. You know, when you talk about how you have a [00:28:00]
successful mission, I think developing a shared mental model for success is
really critical. And so, you know, if you are going with a space agency, if you're
going with nasa, it's gonna be pretty obvious, um, from the start. You know,
you're going there with these scientific objectives, you're going there with these
operational objectives.
Um, when you are, depending on the analog you go to, those objectives may or
may not have been set out for you ahead of time. And so. For me, when I was a
a commander at the Mars Desert Research Station, we very mindfully sat down
as a crew and then developed a shared mental model of success, and it ended up
being, you know.
Safety science outreach fund in that order because you know, you're not gonna,
everything fall follows from every, everything else. You're not gonna be having
a productive or even a fun mission if nobody, if people don't trust in their safety.
Um, so really the crew dynamics, um, become a huge part of whether mission
[00:29:00] ends up being successful, um, versus.
You know, being less productive. And I, I would highly encourage anyone who
lives in any type of, who lives and works in any type of, um, isolated, confined,
austere, extreme resource, limited environment to consider that, um, both within
themselves and how they may adapt and for and with their group.
Matt: So yeah, there's a lot of work to be done.
I is, uh, one of the, I think, central, uh, messages that, uh, that's. From our chat
here, there's, there's a lot that, that needs to be done to advance the training,
certification and legal aspects of medicine and space. Uh, in fact, the, the
current, the aerospace medicine, to get back to what you were saying there, the,
there is a legal framework for that, if I'm not mistaken.
If medicine needs to be administered to people, crews that are. It's still in Earth's
atmosphere. It falls under the [00:30:00] jurisdiction of whatever country.
They're over the airspace. Is that the airspace? Yeah. Whatever country they're
over. Interesting. But of course, in space, yeah. Different rules will apply. And
I'm imagining, let's say there are multiple facilities on the moon, right?
Uh, there is, uh, NASA has their Artemis base camp and maybe something
more permanent. The European Space Agency has built their moon village. The
Chinese and Ross Cosmos have built the, uh, ILRS. Is it conceivable that Yes, if
you're in this zone. Right. They have respective zones. Then the legality is
Chinese state law, European Union law, American law, et cetera.
Is that a fair assessment there? I.
Shawna: So there are some agreements, um, some are older than others, and so
we have, for example, on earth the Astronaut rescue Agreement. And right now
this is more [00:31:00] within the realm of space agencies, um, where, you
know, if someone comes in on an off nominal ballistic trajectory, maybe they
had to evacuate from Space Station and they land, you know, in a, uh, off the,
off the, um.
Nominal path. There are a number of signatories onto the astronaut rescue
agreements saying they will devote resources for search and rescue and, um, to,
to, uh, rescue this, this astronaut. And so I have done a little bit of work in the
astronaut Safety and rescue area and have published on this. And, um.
The scenario that I like to paint is, okay, so say in addition to all of the actors,
which are mostly nation states or, um, agreements thereof, um, are on the moon,
um. But we haven't yet talked about commercial actors. And so there's
companies out there like Inter Lu who are proposing to go to the moon to
extract Helium three.
[00:32:00] So, you know, say that there is a lunar lava tube, um, accident with
one of the space agencies and one of the next nearest. Entities that is able to
offer help is a lunar mining operation. You know, what is their duty to help?
You know? Or is there, there? Right now there is no binding agreement. There
is no agreement on what the rescue of astronauts in space or deep space should
be.
And even when you look at. Earth treaties, or if you look at the Moon
agreement or the Earth, the Elder Space Treaty, these are all non-binding
agreements. So even if you've signed on to this, even if you've, um, signed on to
the Apollo Accord, or sorry, the Artemis Accords, um, you know, they're all
non-binding agreements, but at least to start to fostering that dialogue.
And so the most important part is to start thinking about these what if scenarios
today, so that at least you've thought about some of the contingencies and how
[00:33:00] you might. Rescue, um, any truly, um, in distress astronauts, should
it come to that?
Matt: Yes. And thank you for mentioning commercial mining and, and what
have you there commercial interests on the moon, that, that's certainly going to
be a part of any future permanent infrastructure up there.
So getting to some of your other areas, some of your other, uh,
accomplishments. You're not only a commercial astronaut and uh, space
medicine expert here, but you're also an aquanaut. You had participated in what
sound like some serious missions, and that would includes the nautical
experiments and physiology technology and underwater exploration, or
Neptune, and then the NEP two E.
So, yeah,
Shawna: we just say Neptune two missions. Um, because yeah, if you're
looking at the written word, it sounds exact same. Neptune versus Neptune
spelled with a [00:34:00] two.
Matt: Yeah, basically the sequel. So this was a researching medicine
physiology while underwater. Yeah. What did.
Shawna: No. Um, so there are these underwater dive complexes in the world.
Um, there, there used to be a very small number, but I think they're increasing
now. So one of these is famously the Aquarius Reef Base where NASA CSA,
ISA Jackson and their astronauts to become aquanauts and again, work on their
crew dynamics, advanced technologies, and also, um, conduct science.
And so, um. The Aquarius Reef Base is used for nemo, which stands for NASA
Extreme Environment Mission Operations because we love our acronym, our
acronyms in the exploration world. And so we did our two AAU missions not
too far away at a place called the Jewels Under Sea Lodge. So both are in the
Florida Keys.
They're about 13 miles [00:35:00] horizontally distant from each other. Um. So
I was a part of two Aquanaut missions first in 2019. And um, then in 2023 as
the Crew Health and safety officer and that, um, I. First mission was five days
underwater. The second one was six days, so a total of 11 days, 10 nights
underwater.
And we performed experiments related to, um, cortisol changes, salivary
cortisol changes. Um, in, um, in the hyperbaric environment. We tested out
novel technologies like. Doing the first underwater demonstration, um, of a
telemedical consult in a virtual reality radiology reading room. So as a career
medical officer, I said, Hey, I have this trauma patient.
Can you help me, um, interpret this. This shoulder imaging and I met with the
head of radiology in skata, Canada, something like 4,600 kilometers away. Um,
[00:36:00] and we, together, we reviewed the, the imaging and the pertinent
findings. Um, on a, on our subsequent mission, we deployed the mixed reality
point of care ultrasound, um, underwater.
Uh, just as a proof of concept for this point of care ultrasound that is l low mass,
low volume that can potentially, um, augment your capabilities in isolated and
austere environments. Um, and then the other part of this is kind of what is
going back to saying. Earlier about the importance of a good crew.
So the Neptune crew is like a family to me. I speak with them most days. Um,
so three Americans, two Canadians, um, four men and myself. And you know,
coming from backgrounds of engineering, medicine, um, special operations.
Dive. Um, and you know, we, you know, we, in, in building this mission
architecture and objectives, we, um, worked together, you know, for the better
part of a year, putting the first Neptune mission together, and that [00:37:00]
really gave us time to figure out our crew dynamics, um, and such that once we
got underwater, it was, the mission was too short, you know, it was so nice.
We did it twice and I would definitely not say no to a follow on Neptune
mission because, um, you know. The, the best crews become like your family.
Matt: Hmm. Yeah. I'm just, I'm still trying to picture it there. So you were
underwater and you were in what a pressurized volume? Uh, or were you in
actual suits the whole time?
Yeah, in the water. So the
Shawna: Jewels under Sea Lodge is this H shaped underwater dive saturation
complex. And so to get to it, you have to scuba dive down, and then once you
surface. In this habitat. So jewels is at about 22 feet of depth. So then you come
out on the moon pool, um, on the this porch. And so by virtue of being
underwater and open to the surrounding, um.
Surrounding water, you are at the same pressure as [00:38:00] the, the, the
ambient, uh, pressure surrounding you. So you're at about 1.6 atmospheres of
pressure. And so then you come out into this wet porch, you kind of take off
your dive gear, and then you have the two living arms of the habitat. So the h
like the, the.
Middle bar of the H is kind of where you store your dive gear, that's where your
shower and your bathroom facilities will be. And then on the one arm is the
sleeping quarters. On the other arm is the kitchen and the galley, and the
common areas where you might meet, have your meals, do your science, um,
you know, build your, do your crew building activities, do your outreach
activities together.
Um, and so, so you're not, you're not wet the whole time. Uh, that would be
really uncomfortable. Um, but anytime you wanna do an excursion, do some
conservation work, um, do some. Science outside the habitat. You're gearing up
in your dive gear. Oh.
Matt: Sounds really, really exciting. And yeah, the, the purpose of underwater
training, because I've seen, I'm sure like many people, footage [00:39:00] of, uh,
astronauts in training, they, they dawned all their, their gear and they were
immersed in this.
Big giant pool. Giant pool. Uh, one of the NASA centers. Yeah.
Shawna: Oh yeah. That's the, the neutral buoyancy lab. So we'll talk about that
in a second. I'll just kind of finish my, my thoughts on the Aquin mission and
the value that they bring. And so you were living as if you are isolated from any
nearby aid, and so the value of being at depth is that you have to decompress at
a set rate less You.
Risk a dive injury. So now at 22 feet, it's not that big a pressure gradient. You
can do your 30 minute safety dive, which is kind of your safety stop at three
feet, which is what we did. Um, but when you're at the Aquarius Reef Base, um,
and I've been down there un pressurized, but I did some dive medical technician
training down there.
Um, when you are. Once you are at breathing the [00:40:00] ambient pressure
for 24 hours, you're in saturation. And so you need to decompress at a set rate.
Otherwise, the nitrogen bubbles that are dissolved in your blood will come out
too quickly and lodge in places that can cause serious harm, um, you know,
from the least causing maybe bruising and joint pain, or in worst case scenarios
causing seizures, coma, or even death, uh, causing seizure, seizures, coma, or
even death.
So. To safely surface at the Aquarius Reef Base, you need to decompress at a
rate of 16 hours and 47 minutes. By comparison. If you were to, in the, the
quickest timeline, if you had to evacuate the ISS immediately, you could do so
in as little as three to six hours. So you could actually get to definitive medical
care more quickly from ISS than you could from the Aquarius Reef base.
Um, so this is kind of why the value of living and training in these. [00:41:00]
Isolated, confined, austere environments becomes important. So now switching
gears into other ways, how we use the water world to help us train and prepare
for space, um, you were asking about the pool at the, at the Johnson Space
Center, the neutral buoyancy lap.
So this is a 6.2 million. Gallon swimming pool, um, that houses nearly an entire
full scale sized mockup of the International Space Station. And so space walks,
um, are really high risk. Um, they require a lot of coordination. Um. And a lot
of practice. And so you don't wanna do anything for the first time in the space
flight environment.
That's risky. Uh, and it's expensive in this environment that's trying to kill you.
And so what you will see, the NASA astronauts and f the, you know, ISS
partners doing is dawning in their full ev a extra vehicular activity spacesuits.
Um. [00:42:00] Going through the motions of their space walk. And this can be,
you know, a six to 10 hour day easily.
Um, so they know what to expect, how the suit feels, how they're interacting
with their EVA partner, how they're interacting with mission control. So the
first time that they do it is not when they get out into space. And so at the
international. Institute for Astronomical Sciences. We have a baby version of an
NBL.
Um, not 6.2 million gallons, um, of a pool, but we do use a typical swimming
pool, um, 14 feet of depth. And we have a simulated ISS airlock as well as, um,
a strut on which you need to latch yourself to. You need to tether yourself and
yourself, and your EVA partner are tasked to swap out a faulty module. Um.
Using the pistol grip tool, which looks like an underwater drill to work together,
um, to coordinate with mission control and to successfully install a new
functional, um, [00:43:00] uh, module before making your way back to the, the
airlock. And I've done this a number of times and I find it so valuable because
you really are finding the balance between working.
In this, um, highly operational, high risk environment, and you're working on
your communications with your EVA partner. You're working on your
situational awareness, your. Really working hard to do this underwater. Um,
and you're also being task focused while also maintaining this sense of, okay,
what's my, what's my air supply?
Um, you know, where are we in the timeline? What's the next step? What can
we absolutely not forget to do? Um. You know, so you're really getting that
operational experience and I, you know, it, it is, it's very, very valuable. So, um,
highly, it's one of the other things I highly recommend for anyone who really
wants to build that skillset is, um, experience in the neutral buoyancy lab.
Matt: [00:44:00] Absolutely. My final question for you would be, what's next
for Dr. Pena and does it put it. Do you want it to include being a medical officer
with the Canadian Space Agency who participates in a post Artemis three post
Artemis, seven whatnot, missions to the moon? Is that something that we can
hope for?
Shawna: Hundred percent. You know, I, I am an explorer at heart. I've been in
all manner of extreme resource limited environment. I've only loved it more
with every, um, experience that I've had. And so, you know, for me, I'm so
excited. My current focus is on being the best crew mate, um, and medical lead
I can for the A oh two mission.
Um, but I'm equally excited to keep advancing the frontiers of space medicine
and exploration class. Human missions to deep space.
Matt: I would [00:45:00] be yes, tickle and honored to see that happen because,
uh, in part I could say to everyone, I knew her before she was doing this, and so
I'd met and spoken to her and, but above all else, uh, I think it would be
wonderful for you to represent Canada and space medicine space medics on
future missions.
So yes, I want to thank you so much for coming on today. And for taking the
time to talk to listeners here and to inform 'em about everything that you've
experienced and learned, and especially about the need for planning, pre-
planning, and, uh, fostering discussions about the future of humanity and space
from a base medicine standpoint.
'cause of course, how important is it gonna be to stay healthy out there? We, we
all know the challenges, right? Microgravity, radiation, et cetera. So I look
forward to hearing more about your exploits.
Shawna: Thank you so much for having me. This was really fun.
Matt: My pleasure. Tune in next time when we'll be [00:46:00] discussing the
web naming controversy and where we'll feature in the interview with Alex
Longo.
A planetary scientist at the University of North Carolina, author of Launch
America 2014, NASA Glen Honor and Center Award Ceremony was also part
of the team that contributed toward the selection of the Perseverance Rovers
landing site. In the meantime, thank you for listening. I'm Matt Williams and
this has.