Stories From Space

Moon To Mars | Stories From Space Podcast With Matthew S Williams

Episode Summary

SpaceX founder Elon Musk recently announced that his company, founded on the idea of creating the first city on Mars, was focusing on the Moon instead.

Episode Notes

Host | Matthew S Williams

For more podcast Stories from Space with Matthew S Williams, visit: https://itspmagazine.com/stories-from-space-podcast

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SpaceX founder Elon Musk recently announced that his company, founded on the idea of creating the first city on Mars, was focusing on the Moon instead. This announcement has left many wondering why he has made such a massive pivot. There are also questions as to why he's chosen to do this now.
 

SpaceX, Mars, Moon, NASA, Musk, Bezos, Blue Origin, Artemis, xAI, Starlink, Starship, HLS, astronauts, space, Blue Moon, New Glenn, lunar lander, lunar surface, Moon base
 

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Resources

Fraser Cain - Soundbites
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqCx81ky8Ts

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For more podcast Stories from Space with Matthew S Williams, visit: https://itspmagazine.com/stories-from-space-podcast

Episode Transcription

Moon to Mars

[00:00:00] The authors acknowledged that this podcast was recorded on the

traditional unseated lands of the Lekwungen Peoples. Good afternoon and

welcome back to another episode of Stories From Space. I'm your host, Matt

Williams, and today's topic, the recent controversy in questions surrounding the

big pivot by Elon.

The man who created SpaceX back in 2001 with the sole purpose of

engineering rockets and reducing launch costs so that humanity could jumpstart

the exploration of Mars, which he saw as something that was inevitable but had

been a dream deferred. And for the past 25 years, he's been working constantly

towards that goal, incrementally building up a rocket fleet, reducing the cost of

launches through reusable rockets and ride shares.

And ultimately it all came down to the development of the Star ship, the vehicle

that was [00:01:00] gonna replace all of the other Falcon Rockets, and which

Elon Musk envisioned launching regularly from Earth, a thousand at a time. He

once said. That would be able to carry a hundred tons of cargo or a hundred

passengers each, and that with this iteration, with all this equipment and

supplies and people being sent to Mars, you would have the ability to build a

self-sustaining city of 80,000 people.

So many people are now wondering why this sudden pivot as he announced on

February 8th on X coinciding with the Super Bowl. For those unaware SpaceX

has already shifted focus to building a self growing city on the moon, as we can

potentially achieve that in less than 10 years, whereas Mars would take 20 plus

years.

The mission of SpaceX remains the same, extend consciousness and life as we

know it to the stars. He included as a caveat at the end, that SpaceX will also

[00:02:00] strive to build a Mars city and begin doing so in about five to seven

years. But the overriding priority is securing the future of civilization and the

moon is faster.

And as already mentioned, this represents a huge departure for Elon Musk. And

he cited several very practical reasons as to why SpaceX should be focusing its

efforts on building a lunar base first. But the bigger question remains, why

now? What exactly conspired to convince Elon to stop saying that the moon

was a distraction?And Mars was the real goal to start focusing on a moon to Mars mission

architecture, which is precisely what NASA has been doing for the past two

decades. And in terms of him saying the moon was a distraction, these were

remarks that he made as recently as last year. So what's changed in the

meantime?

Well, quite a few things, but [00:03:00] first, it bears mentioning all the

practical reasons for this switch and why it is that NASA, among other space

agencies had been looking to the moon as the first step on a journey to Mars.

Rather than focusing on Mars direct plans, and as we explored in a previous

episode, the idea of a Mars direct admission architecture, this is something that

Robert, the founder of the Mars Society, an astronomical engineer and a

longtime advocate for the exploration of Mars, this was something that he

pitched to NASA back in the late 1990s, and it's something he's been advocating

for ever since.

In fact, years ago when I had a chance of engaging him in a Q and a panel

discussion, I asked what specifically it was about the Moon to Mars mission

architecture that he thought was impractical or infeasible, and he specifically

mentioned orbital refueling. Which speaks [00:04:00] to what Elon Musk is

planning to do with his fleeter rockets.

Orbital refueling is not only a key part of his proposed architecture for getting

de Mars, but also for the Artemis program with the Starship Human Landing

System, which as we also explored in episode, would require up.

So it could break from orbit and actually make it to the motor. In contrast,

Zubrin has gone on record as saying that we could send missions directly to

Mars by ensuring that these supplies will send advance and that this could be

done with the space launch system or the Constellation programs, uh, original

workup for the Aries one and five Rocket, the Aries five being the basis for the

space launch system.

Nevertheless, NASA has been on the same page for all that time [00:05:00]

since the Constellation Program back in 2005, 2006, and their architecture was,

we head back to the moon first. We build infrastructure there that would allow

us to send missions to Mars, and that the same infrastructure would allow for

more rapid resupply emissions sent from the moon rather directly from earth.

And also would allow for follow-up missions mounted on a semi-regular basis,

and that is precisely what the infrastructure that they have planned to build inorbit around the moon and on the lunar surface would be for as well, allowing

regular follow-up missions with a frequency of about one per year.

The reasons for doing things this way. It comes down to logistics and timing,

plain and simple. And Musk, of course mentioned all of these in his post, but to

go into them in a bit more detail, for one, launch, windows to Mars [00:06:00]

occur only about every 26 months. And this coincides with Mars being at

opposition in the night sky.

Which basically means that Mars and the Sun are on opposite sides of planet

Earth. They are opposed rather than being in conjunction. And at this point,

reaching Mars using conventional propulsion would take six to nine months.

Now that's based on robotic missions that have been sent there in the past,

sending crude vessels.

They would need to have a real high velocity rating in order to make it there in

that same amount of time in order to break free of earth absorbent and conduct a

trans Mars injection. And a key point that he mentioned there was iteration. It's

not just about getting there, it's about getting the spacecraft back, getting them

refueled so you can send more payloads, more people.

And between that launch window and the [00:07:00] distance, it's gonna take a

really long time to actually build up a base in a self-sustaining city there. So he

was absolutely right in saying that it's easier to do this on the moon. Not only

are launch windows a lot more accommodating, you can launch several times a

month rather than every 26 months.

And as the Apollo missions demonstrated, it takes only about three days to get

to the moon, which means that if anyone on the lunar surface there any bases,

any habitats, if they're in any kind of trouble. Things break down. They're

running outta food. They've got a limited supply of water and air. They can be

resupplied in a matter of days, and for spacecraft that are then returning to earth,

the turnaround time, getting to the moon landing, offloading, and possibly

taking on stuff to bring home, like resources.

The turnaround time would be about 10 days. [00:08:00] So that's pretty

attractive return on investments right there and far more attractive from a

buildup, an iteration point of view, right? With every flight you're able to add

more equipment, building materials, et cetera, onto the lunar surface, and you

can look forward to much more rapid timeline there for developing a self-

sustaining city.And as I mentioned, spacecraft returning from the moon. They could be hauling

back resources as part of a growing lunar economy. And in terms of what kinds

of resources, this has been explored in great depth for many decades. For one,

there's the prospect of mining helium three on the moon. And Helium three is

relatively abundant on the moon, at least compared to Earth because of the

constant solar, wind, bombardment of its surface.

And given that Helium three [00:09:00] is the ideal isotope for use in fusion

reactors, its extraction could fuel a emerging fusion economy. And of course

there's the extensive mineral wealth as scientists have known ever since the

Apollo astronauts brought back the moon rock samples. The earth and moon

have very similar compositions.

It's basically silicate crust and mantle over top of a metallic core, and also like

earth. Its surface has been bombarded by meteorites and asteroids since the very

beginning of the solar system. And so the surface itself is littered with trace

metals from all that bombardment. So yes, much like as we explored in the last

episode on asteroid mining, there is an abundance of iron and nickel as well as

precious metals and rare earth elements that could, in theory be extracted

[00:10:00] from the lunar crust in soil, and that these would help fuel a growing

space economy.

And help usher in an age of post scarcity. But of course that's the optimistic

appraisal and there are a number of very sticky legal issues that absolutely have

to be worked out before any of this can be done. Now there have been

statements made and international agreements signed, but there they're kind of

broaden their scope and a little general in their language.

So from a legal standpoint, yes. The details, which are always crucial, there's a

lot of work that still needs to be done on that. For example, you have the outer

Space Treaty of 1967 and the Moon Treaty or Moon agreement of 1979. And

this treaty, as I'm sure I've mentioned in previous episodes. It establishes that

the exploration and use of outer space shall be carried out for the benefit and in

the interest of all countries, [00:11:00] and shall be the province of all mankind.

And that is the original language in which the agreement was written. But of

course, it refers to all humanity. So to boil it down, it's basically stating that

space is for everyone. And when it comes to the moon and the question of

mining and harvesting resources and the rights of commercial entities, articles

two, six, and 11 really stand out.Article two establishes that outer space is not subject to national appropriation

by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation or by any other means.

In other words, no one has a right to claim any part of space, and that would

include the moon. Whereas Article Six establishes that the parties to the treaty

shall bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space.

And last Article 11 indicates that signatories must agree to inform the Secretary

General of the United [00:12:00] Nations as well as the public and the

international scientific community of the nature conduct location and results of

their activities in space. However, there were many people in the international

community who felt that the outer Space Treaty was a bit ambiguous when it

came to the issue of property rights on the moon, mainly because the treaty

spells out that no nation has the right to claim sovereignty of anything in space.

But it did not specifically mention private corporations. So the Moon Treaty

was an attempt to amend that by saying that the moon is part of the collective

heritage of humanity and that any economic activities on the moon and what

that yielded in terms of resources or research breakthroughs, even, that these

were to be shared equitably and under the auspices of international law.

Unfortunately, none of the [00:13:00] major space agencies of the world signed

onto this treaty, whereas the Under Space Treaty has over a hundred signatories

today, only a handful of countries signed onto the Moon Treaty. And what's

more in recent years with the economic landscape shifting with the booming

growth in the commercial space sector and the idea of prospecting and mining

asteroids and other off world resources.

There have been a lot of major legal decisions that have many worried. For

starters, you had the commercial Space Launch Competitiveness Act of 2015.

Signed by the Obama administration that established a framework for US

citizens to own and sell resources extracted from other celestial bodies and more

to the points you had the executive order signed by the first Trump

administration in 2020 titled, encouraging International Support for Recovery

and Use of Space [00:14:00] Resources.

And this order was much more explicit in its purpose and its intent. It mentions

the Moon Treaty by name saying that the United States never signed it, and

therefore people have a right to declare property rights on the moon. However,

NASA came back at this with the Artemis Accords, which as I've said before,

did seem like an attempt to do a bit of an end run around the Trump

administration and its attempts to.Basically say HA at, or boys, when it came to the moon and property rights and

resource extraction, as NASA specifically stated in the Accords that its purpose

was to reinforce that space resource extraction and utilization can and will be

conducted under the offices of the Outer Space Treaty with specific emphasis

on articles two, six, and 11.

So there's those articles again. And in particular, article 11, section three. This

[00:15:00] really addresses the question of surface activities, and it says that

neither the surface nor the subsurface of the moon nor any part thereof or

natural resource in place shall become the property of any state, international,

intergovernmental, or non-governmental organization, national organization, or

non-government entity, or of any natural person.

So, yes, while it doesn't specifically say companies can't do this, the language is

pretty clear. So coupled with the Artemis Accords and what it states about

commercial interests, they're basically saying you can extract resources, but

you're not gonna own the land you're on. You don't have property rights to it,

and what you're doing has to accord with international law.

So it will be interesting to see how that plays out. In any case, there has been a

fair bit of speculation as to why Elon Musk, [00:16:00] who founded SpaceX

with the sole mission of Jumpstarting Martian Exploration and building a city

on Mars, why he would now do this turnabout. And there have been some

interesting developments in the last few years that might provide some insight

there.

One of which includes the ongoing feud between Musk and Bezos, who he

views as his chief rival and chief competitor. And of course, Bezos certainly

returns to the favor. And while SpaceX has enjoyed a virtual monopoly now for

many years, blue Origin Jeff Bezos, commercial space firm. It has emerged in

the last little while as a new competitor and it's, and it's making some very

impressive strides.

The New Shepherd launches, for example, even though they are routinely

criticized as being nothing more than PR stunts for rich people, they

nevertheless, they've achieved a [00:17:00] launch cadence that is really quite

impressive. But more importantly than that is the development of the new Glen

Rocket. And this began with the first launch test of the new Glenn, which

managed to make it to orbit without a problem.

In fact, was able to deploy its payload, which was the blue ring Pathfinder, a

technology demonstrator to a medium earth orbit. So as the company had beenlagging behind SpaceX severely in terms of getting rockets to orbit, which was

something Musk made fun of in a tweet, typically. The inaugural launch of the

new Glen actually made it higher than low Earth orbit, which is a pretty big deal

and a very impressive accomplishment for this rocket on its very first flight.

And the second launch, which took place in November, 2025. They not only

launched a NASA payload, D two escapade spacecraft, and a communication

satellite. To the [00:18:00] Sun Earth, L two LA Grange Point, and that's where

the satellite went. And the excavate mission was established an orbit around

Mars. And on top of that, on the second flight, they were able to retrieve

successfully the booster, thus demonstrating reusability.

And so far, that's only two flights, but Blue Origin hopes to do four more this

year. And the rather rapid progress they're making, that's certainly something

that Musk would not have failed to notice. In addition, there's their Blue Moon

lander, which NASA has contracted for the use as part of the Artemis program,

specifically for the Artemis five and six missions.

And this of course, is in the spirit of competition and not awarding contracts to

single providers as NASA has typically maintained. But SpaceX still had a lock

on the all important Artemis three mission, a long awaited return to the moon.

They were gonna supply the human landing system, the [00:19:00] Starship

HLS, however, before he was replaced by Jared Isaac ING administrator, Sean

Duffy said in October of last year.

That they were opening up the competition again for an Artemis three HLS

specifically because, uh, Gordon concerns that the Starship would not be ready

in time and that the Chinese might actually beat NASA to the moon. And they

are currently planning on sending the first to the moon by 2030. And Sean

Duffy even intimated during an interview that Blue Origin was likely to be a

front runner in securing the RMS three contract.

Ann Musk, true to fashion, was really not pleased and started saying some very

petty and childish things on his platform. X. What Tamara Musk has become a

rather vocal critic of NASA in recent years, which included getting into a very

one-sided childish [00:20:00] flame war with an astronaut aboard the ISS, who

dared to correct him on some details regarding their return mission and as if

name calling wasn't enough.

He also began saying that the ISS should be deorbit and destroyed sooner than

2030 as planned. So it is possible that Musk has decided to shift his focus

because he believes that his full attention is needed if he's gonna to secure thelucrative contracts to bring NASA astronauts to the moon again, and it may

even be that he senses he's going to be pushed outta the running and has instead

decided that he's going to try and establish his own habitat on the moon to

compete with NASA and the Artemis program.

But it may also have something to do with Musk's recent shifts in terms of his

priorities and his vision for his various companies. For example, the merger

between SpaceX and his AI company [00:21:00] Xai. And as part of this

merger, Musk announced that the immediate focus would be the deployment of

a constellation of up to 1 million satellites in low earth orbit that would serve as

AI processing stations.

And this was meant to address two things. On the one hand, the rising electricity

demand that AI processing stations are gonna lead to. And of course, the

constant need to keep them at operating temperature, which requires a lot of

water, a precious and dwindling natural resource. And as he said at the time in

the company statement, by directly harnessing near constant solar power with

little operating or maintenance costs, these satellites will transform our ability to

scale compute.

It's always sunny in space. Launching a constellation of a million satellites that

operate as orbital data centers is the first step towards becoming a Cardus shev,

two level civilization, one that can harness the sun's full [00:22:00] power while

supporting AI driven applications for billions of people today and ensuring

humanity's multi-planetary future.

So in essence, by shifting focus to the Moon, Musk would have the ability

through SpaceX to build up the necessary infrastructure to support this satellite

mega constellation, and also to extend it to the moon where yes. A future base, a

self-sufficient city where intranet is needed and processing centers are available

in orbit.

So one could argue that this is part of Musk's current concerns with closing the

loop between space-based solar power robots and the development of ai. All of

which he views as absolutely intrinsic to commercializing space and building a

space economy. And yes, creating a post scarcity future, which is something

Musk has expressed support for in the [00:23:00] past.

He's certainly aware of the futurist language and predictions. It's something he

grew up with and what he set out to address in many ways to become part of.

And it's also possible that Musk has seen all these developments happening, and

he has come to feel like that by focusing on Mars, he might be left behind.He won't be able to carve out his part of this emerging space market, which as

we know from all of the behavior he has exhibited in recent years, this is

something that is very important to him. He has got a very, very massive ego.

And as some have ventured, he believes that only he can save the human race

and that he only really wants to see that happen.

If he can do it hyperbole maybe. But as the world's richest man, he surely feels

like he's got something to prove here. And as I opine [00:24:00] myself in a

recent article I wrote about this historic pivot, that it may be possible that Musk

has simply read the writing on the wall. By which I mean that for decades there

has been an ongoing debate about what is the best way to reach Mars, and

NASA's chosen mission architecture has always been the moon to Mars.

And others like Robert Zubrin who have favored the Mars Direct approach, they

have always disagreed with that. And Musk's past statements saying that the

moon is a distraction. Well, these echoed what Zubrin has said many times over

that Mars is where the future is. It's where the lucrative research is, it's where

the challenge is.

And that going back to the moon first is kind of a waste of time because there

are limited opportunities there in comparison. And speaking of Robert, he was

not too happy to hear about Musk's Pivot and he has penned [00:25:00] in an

op-ed and also stated in numerous interviews that the moon is not suitable for

human settlement and that the idea of building a self-sustaining city there is

likely to be Musk's greatest mistake.

Wow. That's certainly one for history to decide. And it does seem though, that

for the time being humanity's efforts in terms of crude space exploration and

establishing a human foothold beyond Earth, that they are focused on the moon

first. That this is where commercial development needs to happen first.

This is where exploration needs to happen first. Renewed exploration in the

case of nasa. And that ultimately that is how we're going to get to Mars using

the gateway and similar space stations and spacecraft that can make the journey

between the Moon and Mars, hopefully in a reasonable amount of time, so

likely involving a nuclear, [00:26:00] thermal, nuclear, electric, or bimodal

propulsion system.

So whatever his reasons or motivations, Musk has effectively said that he's on

board with this overall mission architecture. But of course, he also included that

the company is not abandoning Mars. As he also noted, SpaceX will also strive

to build a Mars city and begin doing so in about five to seven years.Now, whether that meant five to seven years after. Building a self-sustaining

city on the moon, which he's estimated would take 10 years, or whether or not

the company is planning on doing things in parallel that remains to be seen.

However, knowing Musk, the timetables, no matter what are optimistic and they

are likely to be subject to revision and delays as time goes on.

In any case, all we can really do is wait and see how this unfolds and it is sure to

be interesting if nothing else. Tune in next time when the [00:27:00] subject will

be at last panspermia, the notion that life is distributed throughout the cosmos

through interstellar objects. And we'll also take a look at some new proposals,

some new research breakthroughs that offer the potential to measure cosmic

expansion in a way that might actually resolve the Hubble tension.

One of the biggest mysteries in astronomy and cosmology today. In the

listening, I'm Matt, this been.