Dr. Slava Turyshev is a NASA researcher and one of the leading advocates for creating a telescope that will use our Sun as a Solar Gravitational Lens (SGL).
Guest | Dr. Slava Turyshev, Research Scientist NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory [@NASAJPL]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/slava-g-turyshev-62b88/
On Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/turyshev
Host | Matthew S Williams
On ITSPmagazine 👉 https://itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/matthew-s-williams
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Episode Notes
Dr. Slava Turyshev is a NASA researcher and one of the leading advocates for creating a telescope that will use our Sun as a Solar Gravitational Lens (SGL). An SGL telescope could revolutionize astronomy and the search for extraterrestrial life, allowing scientists to study exoplanets with extremely high resolution.
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For more podcast Stories from Space with Matthew S Williams, visit: https://itspmagazine.com/stories-from-space-podcast
The Gift of Gravitational Lensing | A Conversation with Dr. Slava Turyshev | Stories From Space Podcast With Matthew S Williams
Episode 72 - SGL Turyshev
Matt: [00:00:00] The authors acknowledge that this podcast was recorded on
the traditional unceded lands of the Lekwungen peoples. Hello and welcome
back to Stories from Space. I'm your host Matt Williams and joining me today,
the special guest, Dr. Slava Turashev. Doctor, how are you doing?
Slava: Very nice. Thank you very much for inviting me to your show, Matt.
So it's excellent to be here. So thank you.
Matt: Yeah, and shortly before we started getting into things, I was noticing Dr.
Turshev's background, which is French Polynesia, and he told me a very
interesting tidbit there. Would you like to repeat what you said for the listeners?
Slava: Look, When, um, Polynesians, they actually gave us a very good
example of how humanity may travel among the stars. Because back then, when
they were exploring Polynesia, sailing boats, uh, sailboats would travel from
one island to another, and [00:01:00] navigation was done using stars. So they
would train their kids to be sailors in the future. They would train their kids how
to sail among the stars. At night, they would navigate from one star to another.
And remember, at that time, they didn't have written a language. They had only
spoken language. And all the culture is based on songs. So the songs would
contain information, navigational charts. If you may, so you travel from one
star, travel for several days at night and day, and then at some point you reach
that star, you turn left, and then when you start seeing grass on the water or
birds flying nearby, that means you are nearby the island.
What is interesting is that at some point humanity will leave the cradle that we
call solar system and will travel to among the stars.
Matt: Now, you are part of the Structure of the Universe Research Group at
NASA JPL, that's correct? That's correct. Yes, and your work entails [00:02:00]
examining the first stars and galaxies in the universe, The mysteries of dark
matter, dark energy, cosmic evolution.
But right now, the thing you are probably best known for, and as I understand it,
your favorite thing ever is the study of solar gravitational lenses. So can you
give us a quick rundown about what that is and Why the study of gravitational
lenses and anomalies is so important right now?Slava: Excellent. Let me answer this question by giving you an example.
For example, if I want to image a nearby exoplanet, and I take our own Earth as
an example, and I move that object, that planet, to 100 Light years away from
us, so it's still our neighborhood is still our backyard, but to image that object
with just one pixel using conventional telescopes, I will need to [00:03:00] have
access to a telescope with the diameter of roughly 90 kilometers, nine zero.
So that's almost the altitude. Uh, when people fly to suborbital flights. I reach in
the space, it's about 105 kilometers, so that's the diameter of a telescope. We
need to have to image an exoplanet with just one pixel. But as you as, as we are
all familiar today, so our cell phones carrying the sensors which allow us to
make pictures of, you know, nature friends, loved ones with high resolution
images.
So we became custom to image everything with many, many pixels. So it's not
enough having just one pixel. We need to have many pixels. But if you want to
image that Earth, exo Earth with roughly 600 by 600 pixels, you need to
multiply 990 kilometers by the number of desirable pixels. So what I'm saying
is that classical [00:04:00] technologies, classical instruments will not allow us
to image the exoplanet directly.
So whatever we have flown to date and whatever we will fly in the next, I
would say, 30 years. Will allow us to get, uh, exoplanets, information about
exoplanets sort of indirectly, we will be able to see big, big bulbs of light, but
nothing of high resolution, but nature aims to as a rescue, nature came to help
us.
And the nature is. Telling us when the light travels by a massive body, the
trajectory of light is no longer a straight line. Essentially, that trajectory is bent
towards the body. So, according to general theory of relativity, uh, Einstein's
general theory of relativity, when we use that theory, we can actually Study the
light propagation around massive bodies, such as the Sun.
In the solar system, because the Sun is the most massive body, so we will
[00:05:00] benefit from that, from its mass, and we will use the Sun as a lens.
So essentially, when the two light rays travel in opposite sides of the Sun, they
will converge. at a large distance from the sun. So nominally the focal region of
the solar gravitational lens starts at about 550 astronomical units away.
And so if we are able to fly a telescope with just one meter diameter, one meter
telescope can travel in the focal region of the solar gravitational lens. And theycan, can image that exoplanet was about seven months. So imagine that if you
fly just a single telescope at a seven month, if you fly several of those
telescopes, inexpensive, inexpensive telescopes to that region, we will be able to
make images of that exoplanet pretty much in real time.
And then what it means is that not only can we make, Images, but also
spectroscopy and spectroscopy is very important because with spectroscopy we
[00:06:00] can actually confirm the presence of gases that exist in the presence
of life. We're talking about oxygen, nitrogen, methane, and so flying those
telescopes, this technology that's already available, we will greatly benefit from
the presence of the solar gravitational lens.
And the solar gravitational lens we just discussed, it's basically we use any
mass, in this case it's the solar mass. Which is the largest accessible mass for us.
And when light travels around that mass, basically that mass acts as a lens. And
so nature gave us a present. So the sun is the biggest lens we have.
And the technology that we have already will allow us to fly there in the next, I
would say 15 years. We are now developing technologies that will allow us to
do just that, to image exoplanet in our lifetime.
And in fact, you wrote a proposal paper for such a mission, a telescope that
could fly to the solar gravitational lens's focal [00:07:00] point back in 2022
with Victor Toth, and in fact, I just found the video shortly before we started
talking, where you were speaking to my boss and colleague, Fraser Cain, about
this.
Yeah. Now, gravitational lensing, this has been used by astronomers for decades
to get a clearer view of objects that are much farther and would otherwise be
much harder to study. And, in fact, your proposal paper, I believe, you said, in
fact, we could view exoplanets using this lens with the resolution and clarity as,
say, What it's like to look up at the moon in the night sky.
It's
even better with the resolution that we, uh, uh, we'll have, we will be able to see
the moon with many, many pixels. And so with resolution that our solar
gravitational lens allows us, we can actually see the thickness of a human hair
on the moon, not [00:08:00] just the hair, but the thickness of the human hair,
but because we will be observing the moon.that object with the large telescope, we will be averaging that resolution. We'll
not get to that resolution, but we, at least we'll be able to image. That object
which is otherwise unaccessible to us with about six by six hundred pixels and
we have We have been funded to do this work by NASA innovative advanced
our concept Institute So NIAC had funded three proposals from us phase one
phase two phase three And since 2017 until 2022, we, uh, a large group of
people worked not only on the science of the solar gravitational lens, not only to
study its optical properties, but also on the mission design.
So design a mission that would utilize a constellation of small sets, inexpensive
vehicles that will be propelled by solar radiation pressure. To reach very large
velocity, and once they travel all the way to the solar gravitational lens focal
[00:09:00] region, we will be able to use optical communication to
communicate.
We will have a radioisotope thermal generators to power the electronics and to
be able to collect the data, pre process the data, send it back to the ground. And
on the ground, we'll be able to, once the data is received on the ground, we will
be able to collect, interpret the data, and recover the image pretty much in real
time.
And so that is something that we have studied and, uh, we confirmed that
indeed this mission is feasible with technologies that either already exist or in
the development. In fact, we come up with this set of technology demonstration
missions, essentially to demonstrate the capabilities that solar sales will allow us
to achieve in the next few years.
So our first mission, we are aiming to fly around the sun in about 24 months
from now, and that mission will have velocities twice the Voyager speed. It will
be a record making mission, that essentially speed record will be beaten
[00:10:00] by a factor of two, and then There will be a series of those missions
that will be designed not only to reach high velocity, but also to improve the
technology and essentially ultimately reaching the velocity of roughly seven
times the Voyager in about 10 years from now.
So the idea is that with this type of technology, we can not only Ultimately, I'm
interested in this technology to reach the focal region of the solar gravitational
lens, but with this technology, we can explore solar system much faster and
with inexpensively. So sort of very cost effectively, because with this missions
are with this type of technology, we can actually reach.Orbits that otherwise are unaccessible or very, very expensive, for example,
polar orbit around the sun with the within the solar polar imager mission, we
can with solar radiation pressure and the solar sails, we can actually change the
inclination orbital inclination of the sail craft pretty much three degrees and
every [00:11:00] 27 days.
And if we do that, within the year of our orbit is exactly polar. And polar orbit
around the Sun will allow us to image the Sun from all regions. And what is
exciting about that, if you remember when Cassini spacecraft was flying around
Saturn, all regions of Saturn have shown us very exciting images when you see
hexagonal structure on north and south pole of Saturn.
Similar structure exists on Jupiter as well. And so heliophysicists expect that
Sun will have that similar structure. In the polar regions, nobody have seen it,
those structures on south and north poles of the sun. So our mission will be able
to image the sun, but also monitor its solar activity. That is an amazing mission,
very inexpensive, but it can be done soon.
Also, with this type of technology, we can also look at Earth as an exoplanet.
Because look, most of the technologies, most of the exoplanets that we
discovered today, we use something that we call transit method. [00:12:00] This
is when Exoplanet transits the face of the host star, and, uh, we, using this
technique, we were able to discover many exoplanets.
And now we also able to really to detect atmospheres and study atmospheres on
those exoplanets. But what does it take to kind of, to confirm life in that, in
those atmospheres? For that, we can use the same technology and essentially
observe how Earth will transit the sun. And so we, for that, we can see how
Earth transit in the sun.
And we can actually look at spectrum. that will be blocked by Earth. And we
can look at the results of this investigation to see if we confirm life on our
planet. That will be interesting. So to inform technology development, so that
we'll actually be able to observe not only Earth transit in the sun, but also Venus
and Mercury.
And so these three planets show very different behavior. And this is a good
sample for us to [00:13:00] utilize and confirm that we can actually detect life
and then deploy this technology on the transit missions to look for life around
on exoplanets and nearby stars. But to do this, you need to have access to very
large chemical propulsion or using solar sails again.With solar sails, you fly about 40 lunar distances away and you are in a very
good position to look at the earth transit in the sun and so on. So there are many
other missions. For example, solar sailing mission can fly to Enceladus and get
through the plumes of Enceladus and essentially sample, uh, the plumes at when
the confirming, if there is organic exist in, uh, in the plumes.
So what I'm saying, there is a whole set of missions that we can actually Study
inexpensively and within a very short time frame, the challenge now in this in
planetary community is that, for example, if you take a fresh PhD student, then
she would get her PhD in a reputable university, she will then again get
[00:14:00] into.
A very interesting, very solid, very good laboratory, very good institute that
involves space studies. They will write a proposal to NASA or other agency. On
the first time, they will fail. On the second time, they will improve the proposal.
By the third time, they will be successful. And they will start building their
mission.
So, by the age, she is 50. She will see her instrument on the launch pad. I'm
talking about a very long time it takes for the community to develop any
missions that explore the solar system. So we don't, that should not be the case.
With solar sailing, we can actually, inexpensive drones can fly everywhere in
the solar system much faster.
And we can use them like drones to explore, to do some Some science to
investigations before flagship missions will get there. It is something changing
paradigm of exploration in the solar system. Essentially, it allows. sort of
democratization of access access to the solar system so that not only [00:15:00]
senior researchers ultimately will get their way to do things but young scientists
will be able to do this as well so that's what we're trying to do with solar sails
but for me ultimate objective of course is of course to get to the focal region of
the solar gravitational lens
Matt: yes well in fact yeah this increasing access the democratization of access
the name of the game there is And this is where commercial space comes in.
It's where space agencies work and cut costs and make things reusable. And that
ought to just open things well. And we're seeing that, aren't we? But. It would
be very wonderful to see that all the way to the outer solar system. Well, so
yeah, you, you raised a point here, which, um, I wanted to ask. Currently, if we
are talking about James Webb, Hubble, the most advanced telescopes we have,
and their exoplanet research, in terms of looking for emission spectra.I mean, we've just, we're really just scratching the surface there, [00:16:00]
right? I know that it's, it's been talked about endlessly for years, how we could
do that. very much. If and when, and Webb has now proven we can by getting
transit emission spectra. Compared to what a solar gravitational lens could show
us, right?
Right now we're looking at dots, points of light around a star, and we're
inferring based on the chemical signatures whether or not they could have life.
But bottom line here, with a solar gravitational lens, we could see that life at
work, right? Exactly.
Slava: With solar gravitational lens, we have the chance, before we will travel
to those exoplanets, way before, we can, within our lifetime, we will be able to
do the following.
We will be able to have high resolution images of those objects. We're talking
about, uh, If objects are nearby, let's say Alpha Centauri, maybe a little bit
further, we're talking about megapixel images [00:17:00] of those objects.
Megapixel, it's, it's a lot. So we can see continental lines, weather patterns,
topography, uh, structures on those exoplanets, but that's not enough because
people will say, who cares about the picture?
Pictures, picture is wonderful and it's worth a thousand words, I understand.
But. What, what does it do for confirming life? And here, uh, spectroscopy
comes to help because now we can have, uh, a spectroscopy, spectroscopic
studies from, let's say, from one to 10 micron, uh, band, where all the important
life, uh, signatures exist.
Oxygen, nitrogen, methane, all the other composites. And we can now not only
detect, uh, spatially resolved, not only can do spatially resolved spectroscopy,
meaning we can identify a particular emission of methane emission from a
particular spot on the planet. So if there is a swamp, we know that that swamp
emits a lot of methane, or if they have oil leakage like [00:18:00] we do, we'll
definitely have that oil leakage detected.
And if they use the same carbon fuel technology as stupidly as our civilization
does, We will see that as well, but then if we don't see that, if we see sort of
different technology development, that also will inform us on how to treat our
planet. So there's a lot of benefits of correlating spectroscopy with optical
imaging.So by that we will identify the emission, we will identify the cities if they exist
on those planets. And I'm not using those words lightly because I'm still trying
to avoid. Using words aliens and you know, the technology, we don't have any
confirmation on that, but that opens up the science fiction cover from this
research because suddenly now with the solar gravitational lens, we have the
technology to start asking those questions.
What are we? What if we are not alone? What does it mean for us for the human
beings? Look, only 70, 000 years ago, [00:19:00] human beings were. Sort of
unimpressive animals that were roaming in the one corner of Africa. 70, 000
years later, you and I are having this conversation. Through this time of
evolution, we evolved from tribal, uh, structures, we built social structures on
the planet, started traveling, steam engines, airplanes, boats, spacecraft.
Now we're thinking about what would be the next step to explore our galactic
neighborhood. And that's what humans. 10 and should do. And with this
understanding, we are now opening our eyes to the skies and asking this
question. What if somebody else is out there? How do we actually make a
contact? Or how do we, what do we see first?
So those questions that were answered only in science fiction, now we seem to
have technology that will Allow us to reach those questions and start answering
them.
Matt: Well, that would [00:20:00] be absolutely wonderful. And in fact, to a
word I've been wanting to throw out here, techno signatures, right? That is, that
is the difference between astrobiology in general and the search for
extraterrestrial intelligence.
So yes, we could see city lights on another planet. Assuming that such
technology was used, but also built up structures, infrastructure, you know, it's
very, very exciting. And what you said earlier, people may say, what good is a
picture? If I were to summarize what I'm hearing, it would be that, well, the
picture tells us where we should explore because what good is a mission that
costs us.
So many, many, many billions of dollars, possibly a trillion dollars. If it arrives
and says, nothing but balls of rock here. It's like, well, that's, that's good to
confirm it. Then the fact that we sent the probe alone is great, but God, we're
really hoping to find something. What do we do now? Go, [00:21:00] you
know, go to the next one.That was, yeah. It's like that project's not going to be repeated. I don't think not,
not for that price. And I think,
Slava: look what is happening. We actually. Uh, amazing missions that are now
in space and the, the, those that we are building like, uh, James Webb, like
Hubble used to be, oh, it still is. There are many other missions.
Roman will be soon in space. There will be a habitable world observatory.
Those missions will inform our target selection criteria. So they will provide us
with a list of targets of high value where we can go being guided by those
missions. So we definitely need those missions, uh, before we'll deploy a fleet
of small spacecraft to the focal region of the solar gravitational lens.
So those missions, by now, as you are aware, we have a list of roughly 10, 000
exoplanets discovered. Majority of them are hot Jupiters. So exactly on those,
on those planets that we don't expect to see life. But small, little by little, we
actually getting. The list of terrestrial planets [00:22:00] populated. And as soon
we will have a list of good list of planetary candidates.
Those that resemble our own planet G type star with the solid surface of the
atmosphere. And then we will realize that this planet definitely exhibits a lot of
interesting behavior, but we will not be able to see live there because our
instruments that are now in space or those on the ground, the largest telescope
on the ground is 39 meters in diameter.
Built in Chile in the European large telescope. So this telescope will be able to
see on the blob of blobs of light, not will not be able to resolve and to have a
very high good resolution images, even with one pixel will be will be just blobs
of light reflected off the surfaces of exoplanets and some.
Some spectroscopy, this will be wonderful. But to improve on that, we need to
either travel there or actually do imaging before we travel in there with the solar
gravitational lens. And in my understanding, I think [00:23:00] humanity will
be able to travel to those worlds. within about maybe three to 400 years from
now.
So, but I think with the solar gravitational lens, we will start looking at those
planets within about 30 years from today, 35 years from today and see the focal
region of the solar gravitational lens is not just single point. It's a semi infinite
focal line. So we don't need to stop at the focal point.We actually Launch a spacecraft and we'll continue costing essentially along the
predetermined line and we'll be still looking back at the sun using the
instrument that we call coronagraph to block the solar light and then imaging
that Einstein ring that will be formed around the sun and that Einstein ring will
have all the information about the exoplanet and that's something This is very
interesting.
Look how it works. How solar, solar gravity lens or any gravitational lens, it's a
good projector. Imagine yourself sitting in the movie theater. Behind you, there
is a projector. In front of [00:24:00] you, a large movie screen. So what
projector does, it projects a compressed image on the screen. And so on the
screen and in front of you, when the light reflects off that screen, your eyes,
your retina gets the image.
But now imagine if there is no screen, projector still works, and the light still
goes somewhere, but nothing to reflect from. So you don't see the image. You
go up on stage, uh, to recover the image. You look back at the projector. You
don't see the whole, uh, image that projector projects. You see only flickering
light from, uh, from projector.
What you need to do, you need to move your eyes from point to point in, uh, in
a planar arrangement X and Y direction. Once you go from point to point, you
collect on the information and you process in your brain the image that, uh,
projector actually projected. That's what we will be doing. So we know how to
do the imaging with the solar gravitational lens.
We know how to process the image. We know how to remove the imperfection
of the solar [00:25:00] gravitational lens from, from those images, and we have
the understanding how we can actually remove cloud cover from the exoplanet.
How to account for the urinal rotation for orbital motion. And we have a very
good understanding how mission that will be able to image of the exoplanets
can be built.
And so that's something is very unique understanding these days. And so with
this, we are building the community essentially building something called a
public private partnership to start developing the mission. Raise the funding and
essentially start making first steps and flying those technology demonstration
missions to bring the maturity of the solar sailing technology to the level that is
needed to go to the solar gravitational lens.
So for us to launch it mid, uh, mid next decade.Matt: Well, I, that's a very encouraging timeline there. Now this is a purely
speculation, but I was sort of thinking about it as he was saying this. So solar
sails. [00:26:00] They are cost effective. We know they work. And, of course,
the idea of directed energy propulsion and light sails, right?
Breakthrough Starshot, Project Lyra, and a handful of ideas. Now, if I were Uh,
Uri Milner, and I came to you and your colleagues and I said, we really like
your idea and we think that would be a good pathfinder for studying
neighboring star systems and then we'd know exactly where we should send
spacecraft.
Would you be interested in joining us? Because we are hoping to build that laser
array and then we can send your telescope right out to The focal point of the sun
quicker, but I'm not sure how much quicker, but I imagine it would shave many
years off of, uh, it's a rival. If, uh, is that a feasible idea?
Slava: If you want to send a very tiny [00:27:00] spacecraft, like, uh, four
grams, four grams craft, actually one gram spacecraft, uh, and move it with a
fraction of the speed of light.
Thank you. So for breakthrough, Starshot is talking about, uh, 20 percent of
speed of light moving with that speed. So then you can actually in envision a
tiny spacecraft, which is a one gram, you printed the, printed the whole
spacecraft. It's 3D printed spacecraft, very lightweight with all the systems you
put it on four by four meter sail, and then you can actually propel that spacecraft
with lasers and laser.
For that, you need to, uh, you need to coherently combine light from about
thousand by thousand uh, units. It's a array of like million. A million lasers, one
kilowatt lasers to put about a gigawatt energy on the sale. Then you are able, if
you're able to control that sale, you can accelerate it to a very large velocity and
potentially you can [00:28:00] travel to Alpha Centauri system within about 20
years.
That's something can be done, I guess, with technology. And I think this is what
Breakthrough Starshot is trying to achieve. Developing technologies. To travel
there. But we're talking about one gram spacecraft. So it's only to get there and
maybe confirming that yes, indeed, be able to travel for the first time humanity
will be able to will be able to travel to nearby star.
And that by itself is amazing. So anything can be done along this lines would be
wonderfully showing the feasibility. But solar gravitational lens, you need totravel with spacecraft of roughly about 60 kilograms. 60 to 70 kilograms
because you need to have a telescope, you need to have a communication, you
need to have some propulsion, you need to have some energy on board.
So our study shows that we, our engineering study converged on the mass of
roughly 60 to 70 kilogram spacecraft on a sail, on a solar sail. So solar sailing
is, uh, we just need to [00:29:00] tap into the infinite, uh, propulsion reservoir
that, uh, is given by solar radiation pressure. We will use the sun to propel the
spacecraft, uh, because to propel that spacecraft with the lasers, we need to have
a much larger area of the sail and much higher power of lasers off on the
ground.
So I think it will be technically possible, but politically challenging because that
type of energy directed energy may not be welcomed by spacecraft operators in
low earth orbit because David, they will just vaporize the spacecraft. So for that,
we'll be using solar sails and solar sails are good enough for us to reach the
focal region of the solar gravitational lens within about 25 years.
As technology develops, we can come much closer to the sun. Let's say 15 solar
radii, and we are now developing solar sail, uh, solar sails that will be highly
reflective, that will allow us to get to that region, and there is a two groups of
scientists in UCLA [00:30:00] and Caltech are developing, one group develops
a new generation of solar sailing materials, and another group develops, uh, new
generation of laser sailing materials.
So these two groups essentially led by Professor Arthur Arthur that the volume
and prefer and UCLA and Professor Harry at water at Caltech. So I'm looking
forward at the I'm looking at these groups to provide us with materials that will
take us to the sun to very close proximity with the sun to enable travel into the
solar gravitational lens.
Much, much faster than seven times the speed of Voyager, potentially, as, uh,
the study at USLA have shown the sail materials are already have developed,
have been developed small pieces of the sail materials that will allow us to
travel roughly 20 times the speed of Voyager. So that is something will be very,
very important.
If we do that, then basically it will be even more attractive. The mission
duration will will not be as 20, 25 years will be shorter. But [00:31:00] then
when we fly a spacecraft to Saturn, the whole mission takes about 20 years. So
we used to that. It's not something that new, but really developing the project tosolar gravitational lens will be very important because it will push every aspect
of mission development that we are familiar with.
Because for example, when we fly to Mars, we develop a mission, a primary
mission would operate, let's say 90 days on Mars, like. Spirit and Opportunity
rovers operated, the primary mission was for 90 days, but ultimately after 10
years in operation, both of them, Spirit and Opportunity, were still reasonably
healthy vehicles.
So we know how to build, uh, missions that would operate for roughly, let's say,
five years in, uh, in, um, mission duration. Now we're talking about 40 years
mission duration. We need to make sure that we will be able to implement that
technology so that for during the 40 years of transit plus science operations, it
will be a healthy spacecraft.
So it will be multi generational, [00:32:00] uh, project, which will involve
young scientists and senior scientists to actually develop something like this.
And that's exciting by itself. Because as you look at the, in the history, human
history, so we have, we were able to build a large scale structures on this planet.
For example, Great Wall of China built multi generational, it's a multi
generational project. Then pyramids, pyramids of Egypt. So Egyptian pyramids,
very large structures were built by a number of people. But societal organization
in those times was not exactly the same as we have now. So now we are. We
need to build something similar to the space station.
Space station is a, uh, international space station. It was built by a number of
nations, and it still was launched in what, uh, 1999, and it's in flight, 25 years in
flight. So we have, we have built projects that actually are long duration
projects. So we need to learn how to do this. In the new time and actually enable
something the [00:33:00] next step next step towards the solar gravitational
lens.
So we have a lot of foundation, which is solid enough to actually now
contemplate, develop and build that project to the so to the focal region of the
NGO.
Matt: Okay, so this would be one of many very exciting projects coming about
in this decade and the next. Well, and I look forward to seeing them as many as
possible being realized because, of course, the more we got and the more, the
more overlap there will be with scientific discoveries and so forth.Yes. So earlier asked about the importance of gravitational research in recent
years. And. This, of course, has to do with general relativity and how there are
questions, unresolved questions, and there have been for decades. But lately, I
kind of feel like they've been given a bit of a kick in the rear end because, of
course, Webb [00:34:00] has come out and it's shown us some observations of
the very early universe.
And we were kind of hoping they'd say one thing, but they said another and the
whole Hubble tension. So, yeah. Can you give us a rundown on that? The state
of gravity, if you will. What is that?
Slava: That's an exciting, uh, period of physics. Because, uh, until, uh, probably
1998, we had only one major problem. And that was, uh, behavior of spiral
galaxies.
If you use just Newton's gravity, you realize that we cannot explain, uh, Why
the arms of the spiral galaxies, uh, move much faster than even Newton gravity
predicts. It implies that there is a large mass that we just don't see through light.
And so essentially it's a hidden mass or dark matter, we call it.
So the problem of dark matter exists pretty much in, uh, every spiral galaxies.
And, uh, it was [00:35:00] known since, uh, 1930s when Fred Zwicky, then
professor at Caltech, discovered that indeed spiral galaxies, uh, show very
anomalous behavior. Then Vera Rubin in the 70s and her group studied, uh,
those spiral galaxies pretty much everywhere in the universe, observable
universe.
And they confirmed that indeed the dark matter is a puzzling phenomenon. We
don't know physics. We don't know what the mechanism to generate it. There
are many different approaches to explain it, but none of them, uh, yet, uh, sort
of brought any, any sort of feasible explanation. You can think about it's a new,
a new particle.
Essentially, we don't, uh, we have not detected yet lighter than neutrinos, but,
uh, highly, highly populated. Good. And, uh, you may also think about this and
maybe modification of gravity. So it's either two mechanisms are still viable,
and we don't, we don't know which one will actually will end up explaining this.
But in 1998, we realized that we [00:36:00] got another puzzle. And that puzzle,
uh, was, uh, reported by, uh, the WMAP, uh, satellite, uh, showing us, uh, that
very interesting behavior of, uh, supernova. So supernovae, uh, it's a standard
candles when we use those to calibrate distances and essentially when we applythe, uh, distance, uh, calibration, we realize that those, uh, stars, a supernovae
essentially.
They show that not only universe uniformly expands, as we knew from
Hubble's observations. Edwin Hubble, professor at Caltech, shown that, you
know, universe uniformly expands. Everything is moving away from us. And so
after Big Bang, Universe expanding very uniformly, moving everything away
from, uh, from every point.
But in 1998, we realized that that expansion is not uniform. Something is
pushing the universe from within. It's actually expansion is accelerated
expansion. [00:37:00] Something is pushing. There is a force that pushing it.
And we call it dark energy. We call everything that we don't know mechanism
for, we call it dark, dark matter, dark energy.
But look, dark matter was discovered on the galactic scales. Uh, dark energy
was discovered on cosmological scales, on the scale of the whole universe. So
now, if I look at the whole energy content in the universe. What we know is
only 4 percent of all the energy in the universe, but the rest of the balance is
given by dark matter, which is about 23%, and the rest is dark energy.
So, here, here you go. It's the largest crisis in physics, in astrophysics. We don't
know what the universe is composed from. We don't know what drives the
universe. We don't know what was there before the Big Bang and how the
universe's evolution, um, Went through different stages and now for star
forming, uh, space, uh, galaxy formation, what actually drives the universe?
We don't know that. And so we realized that to explain [00:38:00] it, some
people are, uh, came up, came up with different models to explain it using
different, uh, physical particles, different interactions. So the, uh, we know four
standard interactions. Gravity, electromagnetic interaction, weakens strong
forces. So, but basically, they come up with a fifth force, or different other
forces, and different geometric organization, trying to explain the behavior of
the universe.
So, there are many different explanations, but until, even today, we still don't
know what actually causing it. There are some plausible mechanisms, and those
plausible mechanisms, we think we can explore in experiments in the solar
system, because they provide A mechanism to represent those little anomalies
due to new physics in the motion of, uh, bodies in the solar system.Recently, we have studied a tetrahedral configuration of spacecraft. And
tetrahedral configuration, when you fly four spacecraft on elliptical orbits, and
so when you have, uh, Technology that was developed for [00:39:00] Lisa, a
laser interferer space antenna where you have a very precis ability to pre
precisely measure ranges between the spacecraft using a technique called
interferometry.
If you do that, you are able to recover very tiny anomalies in the gravitational
filter in the solar system, and we show, we have shown that this tetrahedral
configuration is a, will allow us to reach the sensitivities where we can start
probing. Of this new mechanisms and potentially discovering those predicted
anomalies predicted new forces in the solar system compensating for the
disturbance forces for the known system known sources of systematic forces.
But this tetrahedral configuration holds promise that we will be able to actually
detect the presence of the same. Mechanisms that are driving galactic
anomalous galactic behavior, and the same for anomalous behavior of the
universe and potential in the solar system. If you find this [00:40:00]
configuration of for spacecraft and the highly elliptical orbit around the sun.
And within five years after launch, we will be able to sort of confirm the
presence of those anomalies and potentially discover their mechanisms and
study their physics. So that's our response to almost 20 years of research. That
led to conclusion that we need to have in situ experiments. Astrophysics is
wonderful, but those mechanisms are hard to validate, to explore.
We potentially, if the same mechanisms work in the solar system, we will be
able to explore those physical mechanisms by flying spacecraft in the solar
system, conducting something called in situ experiments. That's what we are
aiming at, and we are trying to Make community aware of this new opportunity
to start flying those experiments, potentially flying them in the next, uh, in the
next decade as well.
Matt: Excellent. And yeah, I recently did a write up and read your study on the
[00:41:00] tetrahedral formation spacecraft. Yeah. And of course, yes. Very
interesting. This is going to be a very exciting time. I agree.
Slava: In, in one of your questions, you, you, you brought the topic of
technosignatures and technosignatures usually stand for something that we call
Dyson sphere.And Dyson sphere is the structure that is formed by, uh, advanced civilization to
source their energy from their host star to drive the technology and sort of
access to a larger energies. Because essentially. As you can trace the evolution
of the human civilization, at the different stages of our evolution, we demand a
higher energy.
For example, if you look back in, you know, like 19th century, we pretty much
energy, we were dependent on the natural resources, the, uh, the wood, the
charcoal, the coal, then oil came, then nuclear power came. Then now solar
energy is something that is unique. And at some point, we'll be able to harvest
energy directly from [00:42:00] the sun by putting in space very large solar cells
to actually collect power directly from the solar light.
And so, similarly, advanced civilization may already have built those, uh,
structures. We call them Dyson sphere, because, uh, Freeman Dyson was the
one who actually physicist. Uh, who, who actually came up with this concept,
which is interesting. So potentially imaging of those exoplanets orbiting nearby
stars, we can see those exotic structures if they exist around nearby stars.
But also an interesting topic is that if there is advanced civilization and not that
much advanced compared to us, maybe. Uh, by maybe a couple hundred years
more advanced than us, we'll be able to fly a laser transmitter to the focal region
of their host star. And transmit a signal through their host star gravitational field
towards us.
And, uh, in, in our recent study, we just, uh, have shown that [00:43:00] with
the constellation of telescopes in on earth or maybe in the earth vicinity, we, uh,
we will be able to already detect those, the presence of the signals that that
would be sent to us. So that is quite, quite interesting that with the, with
moderate laser power, let's say one kilowatt only.
We can actually cover interstellar distances and provide a very significant signal
to adjacent nearby stellar systems. So we are not able to transmit those signals
yet because for us to be able to transmit, we need to travel to the focal region of
the solar gravitational lens. But if they are able to travel to the focal region of
their lens, they will be able to send us that signal.
And, uh, with the telescopes on Earth or in, in, in space, we will be able to
detect those signals now. And essentially we come up with the search strategies,
how actually you can look for those signals. That will be an interesting exercise,
interesting study, because optical SETI, Frank Drake and, uh, Jill Tartar,
[00:44:00] they started a SETI, uh, search for extraterrestrial intelligence.Uh, back in 1960s. And so that project was, uh, had a very exciting time. And
now it's funded by again, breakthrough. They do an optical city looking for a
light emission or laser emission from different sources, but not gravitationally
amplified. With our study, we have shown that if there is a desire to send us a
signal, then, uh, that advanced civilization can actually build that laser.
And, uh, not that much advanced that we have those technologies already. You
can go and buy one kilowatt laser, essentially a hundred kilowatt lasers are
available into space qualify and fly them. So but with the technology that we
already have, potentially we can fly that and we can transmit ourselves, but let's
not wait for our readiness.
We can detect those signals if they already sent to us. So that is interesting. It's
opening up another era, another area of research. potentially looking for the
transmitted signals. That will be exciting sort [00:45:00] of revelation. If we
detect signal like that, that will be an interesting revelation that we are not
alone.
And before we will be able to travel to the focal region of the SGO, we'll not
only we will be able to image that, uh, uh, that exoplanet, which, uh, be
interested in, but also collect and maybe communicate with that transmitter that
actually sent us the light. So that will be another interesting step for us to
consider.
So, but for that, uh, we have already the telescopes. We have already the
installation of spacecraft, uh, with the capabilities that will allow us to detect
those signals. It's just the time to begin. So we have everything in place.
Matt: Yeah, and I remember reviewing that too, and thinking, wow, interesting.
In fact, we discussed transmission of communication signals energy through
solar gravitational lenses, and Oh yes, quite the interesting, fascinating concept
there.
Well, as a personal aside, I'd say finding evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence
would be [00:46:00] the greatest and scariest thing we ever did. But I hope, I
hope that we do someday.
Slava: Exactly. Look, in my research, I was just looking at physical
mechanisms to see if physics prohibits it. I was not motivated to do anything.
I would just put in assumption. What if, what if there is a transmitter and it's
able to transmit monochromatic light in one wavelength like lasers And soputting it in a sort of, um, reasonably Uh, motivated orbit and transmitter
configuration. What can, uh, that transmission allow? And, uh, to my surprise,
that indeed, we can have very good signal to noise ratio because we can actually
see that signal on the background of the host star and all the other noise sources
that we will optical, uh, noise.
that we will be able to remove. And so essentially that was my revelation that
physically, it technologically, it is possible. Now we can think, [00:47:00]
Hmm, if it is possible, are there anybody transmitting towards us? What would
it take to detect those signals? And essentially this work that we have published
recently, helping maybe Open a new, a new area for optical within optical city
research.
Maybe the community will be able to look at it and see if those signals may be
also searched for. So that was interesting revelation. But you're right. If we'll get
the confirmation that we are not alone, how will that change us? How long will
it take to percolate that idea among the inhabitants of this planet?
We know what 8 billion of people, right? So, and you and I, we're having this
conversation on Tuesday afternoon. It's wonderful. And majority of people may
not have the luxury of thinking about this, right? So because we have education,
we have a sort of life that allow us to allow us to think about those questions.
Many people [00:48:00] cannot make ends meet, right? So they have to provide
for their life. So that idea that we are not alone will not sink. I'm on everybody
on this exoplanet in the same on this planet at the same time. So basically 8
billion people, probably majority of them don't really care. None. They will be
interested, but they will not realize how important that is for the civilization.
How will it affect us? So that's the set of questions, our lifestyle, our, you know,
sort of traditions. All built with understanding that life is finite, and so we alone,
we have to rely on ourselves. How will that change? How will that actually
motivate to change the way we live and treat each other on this planet?
How will we, how that will motivate to save environment on our planet? That's,
that's something, I think I've, I see a very positive impact of that, uh, discovery.
So that will help us to You know, to develop a life on this planet to [00:49:00]
cherish life and actually, you know, treat each other in a better way so that we'll
recognize that, look, life is something that was given to us.
We need to, we need to keep it. And so that will be very interesting. Keep an
environment in life, right?Matt: Yes. Well, yeah. And I absolutely hope you're right in that. This is, uh, It
proves to be a gift that helps us find our footing and do better because we yeah,
the neighbors could be dropping by. We need to clean this place up, right?
Exactly. Yes. And tell your brother and your sister to stop fighting. Well, I
share. Yes, I share your hopes for that there. And I want to wish you the best of
luck because many times when I have guests on the show, I have to admit that
your proposal, not only is it really interesting, I want to see it succeed.
I want to see what this can do. I'm excited for that. And yeah, well, hopefully,
hopefully it can convince others of that too.
Slava: Matt, look, I'm a man on a mission. By [00:50:00] the time I'm reaching,
uh, so to, to reach, to reach this, to fly the mission and reach the focal region of
the solar gravitation lens, it takes time.
And so basically, it takes about, what, 25 years to get there. We're launching
about, what, 15 years from now. So by the time I'm 100 years old. Yeah. I want
to be able to see the surface of exoplanet. So I'm a man on a mission. I want to
keep popping up on your show until then. And then when I see the exoplanet,
then I think I'll go.
But before that, you will see me often on your show reporting on the progress of
what we are doing these days.
Matt: Excellent. I'm going to hold you to that too. Okay. Yes. I mean, yeah,
updates are much appreciated and breakthroughs even more so. Oh, can you
imagine? All right. Well, thank you for coming on and yes, I hope to have you
back on again.
And I hope there's some exciting news or just exciting new ideas and concepts
you're, you're working with. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you for having
me. [00:51:00] No problem. Thank you.