Keith Cowing has been one of NASA's most vocal critics for decades. Together, we discussed what the future may hold for NASA and its ambitious exploration programs.
Guest | Keith Cowing, Creator / Editor, NASA Watch and Astrobiology.com
On Twitter | https://x.com/keithcowing
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/keith-cowing-9b94076/
On Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/keith.cowing
Host | Matthew S Williams
On ITSPmagazine 👉 https://itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/matthew-s-williams
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Episode Notes
Keith Cowing has been one of NASA's most vocal critics for decades. Together, we discussed what the future may hold for NASA and its ambitious exploration programs. In the end, hope and fear are the only way to describe the mood at NASA as it faces an uncertain future.
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Resources
NASA Watch: https://nasawatch.com/
Astrobiology.com: https://astrobiology.com/
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For more podcast Stories from Space with Matthew S Williams, visit: https://itspmagazine.com/stories-from-space-podcast
WTF Is Happening At NASA? | A Conversation with Keith Cowing (Part II) | Stories From Space Podcast With Matthew S Williams
Episode 94 - Keith Cowing (Part II)
Matt: [00:00:00] The authors acknowledge that this podcast was recorded on
the traditional unceded lands of the Lekwungen peoples. And welcome back to
Stories from Space. I'm your host Matt Williams, and today we're going to be
getting into the second part of my interview with Keith Cowan, founder of
NASAWatch, Astrobiology. com and a former NASA scientist.
Prior to Trump's inauguration and the current Chaos that followed. I, I was
wondering this myself, right? Could China make it to the moon ahead of
NASA, which was big talk because of, oh, they're, the Artemis 2 has been
delayed again, and, and I was still putting money down on NASA, thinking that,
no, they're, they're ahead of China in terms of what they need to finish
developing in order to get there, even though the nature of the Artemis program
seemed also very chaotic, [00:01:00] Yes.
Now, not so sure. In fact, the lunar gateway originally as, as part of Artemis,
what they decided to do was they're going to launch the SpaceX is going to
launch that, uh, the core elements that was supposed to happen last year. And
there's been delay in that. And I'm assuming it's due to a delay in the
development of the core elements.
Yes. Okay. Yes.
Keith: Well, not only that, but I think also there was some, I think they were
pacing this based on when the other stuff needed to be ready. And if, if Orion
was delayed, then why would you want to put that thing? Because it things have
a lifespan and once it's up there, they got to operate it. And so on and so forth.
I'll tell you, you know, I've been on CGTN a lot. I mean, they don't pay me, I go
on because they're interesting, and they never edit me, you know, and all that.
And they ask me these questions, and you know, and they have a space program
that's proceeding apace. Very strategically, [00:02:00] logically, if you look at,
you know, Chingy's 5 and 6, the landing stages.
And you look at their ideas for lunar landers I mean just just getting the
powerpoint and enlarge by 110 and you got the lander So they're they're
thinking very strategically each thing builds on the next and now they just put
something out the other day uh, you know further and further they're naming the
things and so forth and they're proceeding as if This is going to happen because
it probably is.And this may be sort of a, I don't know if there's a Chinese parable equivalent,
but of the rabbit and the hare, the tortoise and the hare. They're still at the pace
that they were going at before we keep monkeying with our own. And so we
could conceivably have gotten there sooner, but we keep changing our mind.
And they're like, okay, well, we're, we're going ahead. And I would not be at all
surprised if we stumble and fumble and [00:03:00] just give them the chance to
do this. And I would say, you know, all power to them because as much as I'm a
proud American and would love to see my country be the first to go back to the
moon.
Um, it may well be that the future of use of space has to be broken open by, you
know, the, not the usual suspects, but new parties and new thinking and new
alliances. And, you know, I get asked, is there a space race? Yeah. But it used to
be, it was America versus Russia. Okay. You know, in this corner of America,
this corner of Russia, you know, and, you know, somebody had to win.
And now, there are competitions, there is a space race, but there's also
collaborations. There's people who collaborate on one mission, but cooperate on
another. There are different collaboration and cooperation are two different
things, and they compete on others. So it's a multi polar, multi focal, uh, thing
where people are of different capabilities all at the same time.
able to say, yeah, I'll throw X [00:04:00] amount in there to, you know, make it
happen. How things may turn out may surprise people, you know, China has the
benefit of just not being distracted by politics. They have a clear focus, the
budget's there and, um, you know, they see this as a matter of what great nations
do and they're going to do it.
And there's no way we can stop them. And if we get, if we land before them,
they'll just land after us and say, yeah, well, we did it too. And we did it for 10
percent of what it cost you. Oh, by the way, we're going to do it again
tomorrow. You take two years between missions.
Matt: I'm getting a bit of a deja vu moment here from watching For All
Mankind.
Oh yeah, absolutely. The lovely little [00:05:00] one upmanship that seemed to
be that was going on throughout the series. And yes, I mean, vintage space age
kind of concerns there. And what if they came true? Yes. So, one other question
I have, in terms of the Starship, in terms of its orbital refueling, I've Had a hardtime finding accurate information on how that's coming there, because I
remember years back, it was a bit of a contentious issue.
Musk had said that, uh, they'll only need a few refueling runs there in order to
get to the moon and take off again. But an independent study was saying, no,
they're going to need a lot more of that if they want to do the whole trans lunar
injection. Land on the surface and blast off again, and then at some point, my
understanding had been so they're going to send up tankers to rendezvous with
the Starship in orbit and just transfer fuel aboard.[00:06:00]
But now they're planning on putting a depot up there that tankers will service so
that the Starship can just dock with that and take fuel on and. And, but the
artist's renderings, they looked exactly like two starships just coming together.
Yeah. And I thought, yes. And I thought, um, so what, what do we know about
this?
Exactly how many times do you have to refuel a starship to get away, get out of
earth orbit? And yes, is this a, is this something that is going to be a cost
overrun for NASA given the fact that they've. paid SpaceX to make the landing
happen for them.
Keith: Well, they, they claim that they've done the fuel transfer test.
I don't know what that means. If they just had two tanks inside of a Starship and
they pushed a button in it. I don't know. I don't, they say they've done it, but it's
one thing to, you know, you know, take two things like this. And I'll add this to
that. No, I mean, we're talking about vast amounts of fuel, [00:07:00] cryogenic
fuel between two spacecraft that have just docked or holding each other together
in some sort of embrace or birthing or docking.
And. Then doing it again and again and again. And do you have to modify
anything to prevent the boil off and all these other things? And, um, what, what
in what world are we looking at? Are we looking this, at this in a world where
there's no, um, no gateway? Are we looking at this in a world where the crew
who's gonna go to the moon, fly up somehow their way?
Um, I assume they're not looking to put the stuff at an inclination of 51 6.
Ideally, personally, I would have used the space station for this sort of thing, but
that's, you know, that's another universe that we're not in. But then, you know,
we're going to build a propellant depot out near the moon. Well, all right, so
we're not going to build a gateway, we're going to build a propellant depot.Is that just going to be a tank or is there going to be a place to live up there? Is
this just [00:08:00] gateway 2. 0 or 1. 7? You know, and then how many times
do I have to fill this? The reciprocal would be is like, I said, why don't we just
build, since these starships are so cheap to build, build one that takes all the
poise, all the, everything, the life support, the tractors, the whatever, land that,
and then have it just sit there, and okay, good, it's there, then you launch another
one that's going to take the crew back and forth, and you only have to have
enough for, you know, the four people inside, and it's, you know, the fueling
would be different, and so forth, and if the thing crashed, you know, all right,
well, I won't send the people to the moon with nothing to do.
That's just me from having been on expeditions to the Arctic and the Himalayas
thinking just logistically speaking, right? But to answer your original question,
uh, I know there's a lot of doubt at NASA because even if you're looking at a
2028 landing, let's say nothing changes for some reason. How many flights will
SpaceX need to do in advance of that before they have the ability to prove that
they can do this?[00:09:00]
Do they actually have to launch the propellant depot and fill it up and then
actually send a Starship out there and dock with it? Or they have to show that
capability in Earth orbit? How many flights do they have to do and what
cadence to launch them before NASA says, okay We're confident that you will
have all the goodies up there so that we can go And you're going to do this by
let's say, January, December 31st, 2028, or whatever the moon's phases are or
whatever.
Right. Um, I, I just really see that as a challenge given all the other problems
that they're being faced with right now, because, Oh, by the way, we're going to
fire all these people. You know, forget about that, you know, so I have a lot of
suspicions. Do I think it's impossible? No. Do I think it's possible?
No. I don't either. I, I have a lot of doubts about, we have, we have heaved
complexity into this wherever possible. It comes from the fact that Mike Griffin
designed Orion so heavy that it couldn't [00:10:00] Being launched in an Apollo
style with a lander and then he committed to this and that now and you know,
was, was, was the SLS the best way to do that?
Well, I mean, the guys over at NASA spaceflight would say, yeah, it was the
whatever it was, the Jupiter or whatever, you know, where did this come from?
Well, it came from some, the Congress saying, you're going to build your
launcher, build out a shuttle part. So it's like. Okay. All right. We have now putas much complexity and whatnot in there and you know, on top of that, you
know, you're using shuttle engines.
That's great. They're fine. But only NASA would spend a couple billion dollars
to make those engines reusable and spend another billion or two to make them
disposable. Only NASA would do that after they went through the whole J 2
thing and qualified them and said, well, we are not going to use them. It's just,
we, we, we, they have, they have thrown every possible bottleneck and limiting
[00:11:00] factor possible into this and add in the funding difficulties and the
hemming and hawing about Moon or Moon Mars or Mars and Moon and Moon.
Oh, by the way, there was an asteroid retrieval in the middle of the stoop, you'll
recall. We're going to go to that. Oh yeah. I forgot about it. I don't know why,
but then we weren't going to get it. We're going to get a boulder. Well,
technically it's an asteroid, but we would, you know, okay. I mean, it's a pre
meteorite.
Matt: So if I, if I understand what you're saying here, it's that, well, yeah, the
mission architecture has evolved a lot since, well, 2005. I mean, not in a good
way. Not in a good way. Yeah. Yeah. And yes, it's changed many times. Was
there any point where you felt like, okay, this current architecture here sounds
okay.
Sounds like good enough.
Keith: Well, actually, you know, I was sitting 20 to 30 feet away from
[00:12:00] Bush when he made, at NASA headquarters, when he made the
speech. And okay, I was across the street 15, 20 years before when his father,
Aaron Space, made another pitch. And so right off the bat, it's like, okay, that
felt flat.
But before it fell flat, they pretty much had rockets doing things like, you know,
we're going to watch one with this, one with that, and then we'll go to the moon.
And the initial ideas that were coming forth from the space, the vision for space
exploration, Sean O'Keefe and Craig Steudle and whatnot had a, you know, let a
thousand flowers bloom, spiraled, they just came up with, let's have every idea
out there.
And they came up with these and they said, well, we, this is going to be a
problem. That's going to be a problem. We haven't done this in a long time, so
maybe, you know, so there's a lot of realism in there. And they were baking itdown to a couple of decisions. Then O'Keefe left, Bush 2 happened, uh, oh, and
Iraq 2, by the way.
And, uh, Mike Griffin came in and did the proverbial, pulled the envelope out,
drew a picture and says, we're going to do this. And, you know, we [00:13:00]
ended up with a architecture that might have found a better solution. Replaced
with one that was involved the Ares One X, you know, and, and, and
immediately they found out that all the rockets would shake everything to
pieces because Mike Griffin drew them on that, you know, that envelope or it's
napkin in a restaurant and we lost time with that.
And then we, you know, launched that thing and it was pointless. Then we had a
new launch escape system that he developed that was launched but was
pointless. And, you know, so, I mean, we had these and we've spent all and then
the J two. Testing. So we had, again, all these false paths. I lost confidence in
the ability to do this right pretty much when Mike Griffin said, we're just gonna
go with, you know, the Ares 1X and the Ares 5 and all that.
And he said, we'll make it work. And it quickly was not being made to work.
And it was like, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. [00:14:00] And
the doubts were happening. And I was getting this stuff like every day. And
then finally, the Government Accountability Office and the Office of the
Inspector General, uh, came back and said, no, it ain't gonna work.
And by the time they, you know, the Obama folks came in and wanted to get rid
of it, we had wasted four years. And then the Obama folks peddled around for a
while, then said, Oh, we're going to do this. And then we wasted four more
years. So every time you thought maybe they got a solution, they'd come back
with, Yeah, but we're going to do this stupid thing.
And then the Trump folks came in and said, We're going to do, all right, we're
going to dial it up. Okay. Well, did they change anything? No. The only place
where you brought something new is, was with, uh, you know, Nelson when
they finally decided that they're not going to get to Lander and all this other
stuff and we need to bring in SpaceX and Blue Origin.
That's the point at which I thought maybe Maybe, this is the beginning, the
elephant sticking its head under the tat, [00:15:00] that maybe we'll see that the
SpaceX, Blue Origin, and the other companies in between, come up with things
that they would peel back the gateway thing and say, you know what, we could
just do this, we could build five or ten of these spaceships.Starships, blow them up and still have money left over to do it all over again as
compared to the multi billions you need for every single launch. So I started to
feel a little bit confident when that was happening, but here we are now where
we're really facing a big, big decision. And the real question is, if you were to
ask, what would be the biggest impact?
Well, we might find a better way to do it. When we canceled the shuttle, that
was after it had some problems, but it flown for decades and it was time to
move on to something else. We walked away from Apollo because we did it,
yay, we won, and we had Vietnam, but if you're going to walk away from the
Artemis program, that's after the Ares thing [00:16:00] failed, that's after the
next iteration failed, and this is more or less the third attempt to do it, and it's
saying NASA spent all this time and blood and treasure, they can't get it right,
we're going to cancel it, why am I going to think NASA is the place where all
good ideas go to die?
That's what's going to be the unfortunate thing. I mean, we may still land on the
moon, but it's like, NASA's like lost its mojo, and I'm afraid of that, but on the
other hand, I don't think the SLS White Elephant Circus can go on much longer,
because we spend more time changing things on Earth than going with these
things to other worlds, and that's very frustrating.
Matt: Yes. Honestly, uh, you mentioned a few things there. In fact, you, you
wrote a book in 2004, I believe? Yeah, Frank and I, yeah. Uh huh. Yeah, and,
uh, yes. What can you tell us about the co author just quickly there?
Keith: Well, Frank, we lost [00:17:00] Frank a few years ago. Um, he had, um,
oh, it was a long story. He had, he was, um, had diabetes and he was, uh,
Unconscious for a few days and we found him in his apartment and we got him
back to health and so forth.
But he was never the same after that. He had a couple strokes and so forth. And,
uh, all of us in the space community were able to figure a way to get his ashes
on board a Falcon flight. So he is the first space journalist to be interred in
space. And if he were, if he's listening now, I'm sure he's still giggling about
that whole thing.
Because he was also Elon Musk's first employee in Washington, when he ran
the, uh, Washington office. Yeah. So, um, Frank and I wrote that at a time
when, we broke the story. I mean, we were on the Washington Post, I mean, the
Washington Times. And, um, you know, put a book out about that, but, you
know, went through a lot of the trials and tribulations of this and, you know, itreally was a pivot or a hinge in [00:18:00] history, as Frank would like to say,
because the Bush folks really were like, you know, they'd call O'Keefe and Paul
Pastrick and everybody else in the office and they'd just sit there talking about it
and say, you know, what do we do?
We just lost all those people in Columbia, do we just retire everything and just
not send people up anymore? Or what do we do? And by the way, we're
building the space news. Or do we do something bold to really get the pump
primed again? And they decided to finish the space station, then retire the
shuttle, because that was the shuttle's job, and then to go with the next
generation of stuff, to go on to do great things, and that's when we saw the
moon, and Mars, and beyond, was the tagline.
And they felt that the next generation needed to bring the inspiration back in.
And that's where they went. And for about a year and a half after the book came
out, then the announcement, it looked like it was going to happen. I mean, there
was, uh, the, um, the, uh, the robotic people and the human people, I don't mean
they were cyborgs, but the robotic spacecraft people and the human, we all
thought [00:19:00] Saw that there was a rising tide lifting all boats, that there
was a synergism between them.
There was a realism that we hadn't done this in a while. We were going to go
back and rethink this, but think of the science, but also think of going back to
stay and going, thinking in an expeditionary fashion, where you're going to go
explore the solar system, not visit, say hi, take a picture and come home.
And our book sort of tried to pick up on that, and we did some subsequent stuff
with NASA. I did a big symposium with, you know, with O'Keefe and John
Grunsfeld about comparing Earth based exploration paradigms with NASA's
and so forth. And so, out of that, that moment, we, Frank and I were able to sort
of just help craft a bit of the discussion on what's it like to go back to the Moon?
And, um, this isn't your dad's space program, so to speak. And that lasted until,
um, uh, Bush decided to go into Iraq and So, we were involved in this thing
right at the point [00:20:00] where we thought Yeah, this is gonna be like
exploring with a big E, you know, exploring the solar system, and Sean O'Keefe
was a big fan of that, as were the people around him, but then, uh, Bush 2.
0 came in, they were going into Iraq, Sean left to run LSU, and Mike Griffin
came in and it just went foof. Mike knew better than everybody else and we're
going to do it his way and his way did not work and torpedoed a lot of theenthusiasm very quickly because he didn't want to involve people. He had his
way of doing things in this.
Big tent approach to really exploring came down to we're going back foot flags
and footprint, and that just turned a lot of people off. So, I think Mike Griffin
was the one who torpedoed more of this going back to the moon energy than
anybody else, even though he was trying to do the exact opposite. Hi, Mike.
How are you doing?
Matt: I just, yeah, I wanted to make a quick note here. The, the [00:21:00] book
that you were just describing. It's titled New Moon Rising, The Making of
America's New Space Vision, and the Remaking of NASA. And you can find
that on Amazon if you're curious. Um, and of course
Keith: Easy to find it on eBay or used copies.
It was a non best seller.
Matt: Well, typically, yeah, typically science books are
Keith: Yes,
Matt: I'm sure many people read it and found it inspirational, just maybe not a
mass market paperback, uh, kind of read, but definitely something very timely
and interesting.
Keith: It was a slice in time. It was a slice in time. Uh, it was for, for a few
moments.
That was what was going on. And, uh, you know, obviously we had a little bit
of an insight to what was going on, but, um, You know, it evolved quickly and
like things do in Washington, you got to have something that's got umph and,
and, and compassion and inspiration with it [00:22:00] that transcends
administrations and congresses and we came real close.
And then it just went away, and it sort of came back under Jim Bridenstine, um,
where actually, I can claim this, you see the phrase, the Artemis generation?
Well, I kept saying, he, me and I used to talk, and I kept saying that to the, on
the phone to him. I kept saying, well, I'm the Apollo generation, this is the, and
he finally said, Keith keeps saying this, it sounds, so that, I came up with the
phrase.And then, he, he was running with that, I mean, you know, here, and I supported
him, I'm a lifelong Democrat, and I took a lot of crap from people. Pushing for
Jim to be nominated, because I had talked to him and this guy got it. He really
got it. And he was working again to try and bring back one of the first people he
met before he was confirmed was Sean O'Keefe.
And they were talking about how to just bring this so that everybody felt they
were participating in this. It wasn't just the geeks, but it was everybody. And
then that just hit a [00:23:00] stone wall again. So. Here we are now, and
Bolden came in, and he tried, and Nelson, and he tried, and now Isaacman, and
I'm just hoping that his young energy, and his enthusiasm, and his willingness
to, I mean, He flew these missions and he raised money for St. Jude's.
That's, I love that. But it was like totally not what you would expect the space
guys to do. It would be like for some space museum or something. No, he went
and said, I got this excitement from one venue, I'm gonna cross pollinate to
another. So I'm hoping, you didn't even ask this question, but this is what I,
yeah.
That, that, this is what Will pop into his head into his speeches and whatnot
when he's finally there when he doesn't know anything yet about what he's
going to do. He's going to say, well, here's my gut feeling. Um, you know,
spaces for everybody, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, uh, absent that we'll just go
about, we'll just be on the same road again to great ideas and after a year or so
there'll be a [00:24:00] midterm election and all the budgets will go the wrong
way and that'll be it again and I'll be 90 before we ever do anything.
Matt: Well, yeah, budgets are a big issue here too. Just looking at the
spreadsheets or what the condensed version that you can see on Wikipedia is
that NASA's funding has been. Well, since the Apollo era, it has been in the
vicinity of low, low single digits, percentage wise of annual spending. And it
has sunk to, I think it's been more than a decade now, 0.
5 percent sort of hovered, and it's dropping even further just in the last few
years. So, bottom line, I feel like, in addition to more funding, what NASA does
need to do is, maybe part of the problem has been Just continuation, right? It's
like, well, we've already sunk all this money into this idea. So we want to see it
through.
It's been too expensive to [00:25:00] abandon at this point. And well, it's
comparable in a way to the James Webb space telescope there. It had the lots of
delays, lots of cost overruns, but something good did come with it. Yeah.Are you hoping that, is there a, any, any faith that something similarly good
could come from all this and all this.
Keith: Yeah, and the Webb was interesting because now I'm like my, my other
and supposed to be retired now writing a book on astrobiology and expeditions
to other worlds and no politics, NO, no politics. It's all about exploration and
stuff because that's been my hobby the past 20 years is going to weird places for
science.
And the web turned into this amazing machine and every day I'm posting stuff
of, you know, the, the, the astrochemistry of the interstellar space and what
we're finding in atmospheres of planets. And it's like every day I'm seeing a
paper and it's a potpourri of just wow, for, for me, and there's a lot of follow on
missions that will build on this data.
[00:26:00] So, you know, we'll go, we went from, One or two exoplanets to
thousands, and now it's like, I can't even keep track of them anymore. And
there's a database that's updated weekly. And so on one hand, yeah, web costs
too much, but it's like Hubble. We will look back and say it was worth it. It was
horrible in the process of getting it to get up there.
And we came up with a really weird design, but it's working. It's Clipper going
to Europa along with, um, the, um, ESA juice mission, which is going to go to
Ganymede and Jupiter. And both of them will be doing tag team studies of
Jovian space and a lot of astrobiology. They're, they're on their way. So they
can't be canceled.
They're on their way. Newton is not going to make them come back to Earth.
But the next big one is the Mars sample return, which is another example of
ballooning costs. Uh, you know, uh, it's at the point [00:27:00] now where
they're talking about the samples that were going to come back in the mid
2030s. When we were looking to supposedly land people on the moon and on
Mars, and the whole idea was you go get samples from Mars, you bring it back,
we study it, we say, is there life there or not, and then you base your human
exploration based on that.
Well, at the pace they were going, the astronauts would be there to pick up the
samples. That would have to have been brought home For them to be there in
the first place. It just was a total mismatch in priorities and scheduling And so
now they're relooking at the whole mars sample return thing and it's many
billions of dollars Is there a simple it's sort of a paradigm like?The Artemis program. Should it be done? Yeah, I would do it differently. I
would send multiple little probes there with all this amazing technology we
have to get some of the answers. But they've decided to go bring rocks and
bring them back. They're coming up with some simpler ways to do that, and if
they can do that, shave billions off of that, then I have some hope that we finally
found a way to say [00:28:00] NASA does great things, but it doesn't have all
the answers.
And a lot of these companies were spawned by NASA people who said, I know
how to do this. I can't do it here. I'm going to go start a company and that there's
answers in these companies and it may be Mars sample return is the place where
we finally find a way to take a whatever 7 billion program and make it a 2
billion program.
All right, that's that's progress. Believe it or not, making something cost billions
fewer, but still billions. And that maybe that's where the future lies because, you
know, if this thing goes and brings samples back and we see evidence that there
is or was life on Mars, to me, I could die a happy man.
That's the thing I want to see in my life is that life happens somewhere else.
That's all I want. I don't care what they look like, what unicellular. antennas or
whatever. And hopefully that will be, you know, that some of the other things
that we're talking about doing with small sats and so forth. But, you know, it
takes leadership to make some of those hard decisions because he may, you
know, Isaacman [00:29:00] may have to say, you know what, we're not going to
do the Mars sample return the way we're going to do it at NASA.
I'm canceling that. But we're going to do Mars sample return. And he may come
up with scenarios where two companies do it, you know, I mean, it just cheaper
with greater risk. You know, I, I don't know. I mean, I've just, that's what I
would advise him to do. And I would also advise him for ways to do some of
the, uh, the sample testing on Mars.
Because you have capabilities now where you, this, there are laboratories the
size of my iPhone. You, you literally put a sample into it, you plug it in, and
you wait, it will sequence something. Now that's Earth life. You have to know
what you're sequencing. But there are ways to start looking at the chemicals
there.
But it requires this change in thinking, where all the smarts may not be on
Earth, that a droid can go do that. And the first mission to Mars may be one that
orbits. It doesn't land. And you're controlling all those rovers down there. That,to me, I mean, I'd like to see people walking onto Mars, but it might be that you,
you know, I think the planetary [00:30:00] society had that idea, that you have it
in orbit with some communication satellites, and you have low latency, uh,
telerobotics and whatnot.
And you're doing, you're just doing all that stuff in space with the droids in the
ground. And as that progresses, you make your decisions based on whether
you're going to bring people and you're already at a base in orbit. But that, yeah.
That runs against the, the paradigm with NASA where we're laying on Mars,
footprints on Mars, and you got to have somebody who's going to make a
decision that we're going to break with these traditions.
And I'm hoping that, you know, Isaac man either is the guy or is going to hire
the people to do it.
Matt: Well, I join you in that. Hopefully some good can come of all this. Yeah.
And in fact, um, yes, in fact, what I'd really like to do, um, we're unfortunately
short on time here. Yes, I'd like to invite you back whenever possible to talk on
the subject of astrobiology because As my listeners have been apprised, or they
may probably [00:31:00] already know, astrobiology. com, that's you, and you
have an extensive background in that, it's what you're classically trained in, as I
understand, you're a biologist by background.
Keith: That's what the diplomas say, that's what my parents thought I was going
to school for, yeah.
Matt: Yes, yeah, it's funny how life works out. Yeah, today, today we definitely
focused on politics and history.
Thereof, but yeah, I really, I want to make time for just that and your, well,
your, your travels, your, uh, work in the high Arctic or, uh, Antarctica too.
Keith: No, no, I've only been to two. I've only been to two of the three poles.
I've almost been to the North Pole and Devon Island. I spent a month at Everest
Base Camp, which is people say is another pole.
I've yet to go to Antarctica. That's on my, I got to figure a way to get Mrs.
NASA watch to let me go down there.
Matt: Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm, uh, I'm about to tackle a story on the [00:32:00] On
that, it's the, uh, apparently there's a, an island that's been selected as a perfect
analog training environment for Mars and, uh, possibly the moon as well.And yeah, my mind, my mind was going to that as you were talking about your,
your experience and where you've been. Well, hopefully we can get into all that.
Keith: Well, I'm writing a book on that, so you'll just give me a chance to
exercise my brain on that and maybe give a few pointers. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's
a pile of paper right now.
Matt: Okay. Yeah. And so quick question if you can answer. So when this book
comes out, uh, Is there a title that we should be looking for, or is it a work in
progress?
Keith: I, it's, I'm a little leery of giving it away because I don't want somebody
else to write it, but, um,
Matt: Right.
Keith: Imagine you're going to Starfleet Academy, and you're, you're, alright,
we're going to go to a Away Team 101 class.
What's the, well, I don't have books [00:33:00] in the future, but, you know,
what's the, what's going to be on the iPad tablet that you're reading, or your pad,
I guess they technically call it, with Mike Okuda's little gremlins on there and
Okudagrams. What are you, what's the, what's the syllabus going to look like
for the class to teach you how to go on your first away team mission?
What do you do? What tools do you use? And what can you, what can you do
today that, Prepares you for that. And could you do an away team in your
backyard? There's a guy, there's a guy in Sweden who's collecting
micrometeorites on the roofs of buildings and has, and he's got an amazing
collection of these things.
And he's just going on the roof of a building with certain collection mechanisms
that anybody can do. And my thought is, is that. You write this book so that
anybody anywhere can realize that this isn't something that's just a dream
anymore. That if you can read the book, and you can pick up some of these
things and run with them with the internet, you know, is a Star [00:34:00] Trek
future possible where you hear people with a million different accents, and, you
know, ethnicities and so forth, where it's, you know, uh, as I like to say, it takes
a planet to explore the universe.
And how do you, what's the book that you would like? The Boy Scout Manual
slash Whole Earth Catalog slash Uh, travel guide slash biology book slash fieldmanual that you would want to have to do that. That's sort of where it's going. I
don't want to get the title away because like I said, you know, and if somebody
else writes it, I'll power to him.
I'll reference it because it's I also want to reference all the good works that other
people have done. It's, this isn't gonna just be Keith Says, I want it to be a
compendium of things, and it'll have an online component, and I'll give this
away, it will eventually morph and merge with astrobiology. com.
So it'll, it'll live on that way, cause I'm not gonna be doing this forever, and
hopefully it'll just sit there as a body of work that somebody can just take and
run with and continue with. [00:35:00] My thing to leave behind.
Matt: That's quite a plan and I'm already excited for it. In fact, I'm going to
look for it Just let me know.
Keith: You'll get a review. You will get a you will get a review copy
Matt: Yes. Okay. Uh, yes. Does that mean I have to write a review? No, it's just
like,
Keith: okay, must finish book to. Yeah,
Matt: yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I'd be honored, frankly. And, uh, yeah, I
have a small collection of scientific books there. And yeah, I have a feeling it's
going to be.
Putting it among them. It's like, yeah, uh, this is going to be on the shelf. This is
going to be required reading along with, uh, uh, intelligent life in the universe.
Keith: Well, that was you, man, you're a mind reader. When I, I read that, I was
just going to say, I read Sagan's Intelligent and Tchaikovsky's. Tell It's a Life in
the Universe, when it came out, it was a little, my mother worked in the library,
so I got an adult library card.
I read it when it came out, or I [00:36:00] tried to read it. And that book had
such a profound impact on me that it's in the preface to my book. This, I, I, I,
I'm not going to say I'm, I'm trying to become Carl Sagan, although I did review
his proposals when I worked at NASA. I used to get his, that was kind of
interesting.And he stole one of my jokes once, which I'm going to write about. Um, uh, but
yeah, that book. I remember the impact it had on me, because nobody around,
none of the other kids around me got it, and I, in the science class that I had to
do, we had to build projects, and I, if you go look this up, all these space geeks
who are listening, the Gulliver, the multivator project that was going to send to
Mars, it was this little capsule, it would shoot out these little things with sticky
cord and Pull them back in and do some simple tests on them.
And I built a model out of an upside down wash, uh, garbage can, some 1920s
fishing reels and a few springs. And I brought it in. The teacher thought I was
like, would you bring a garbage can in for? Well, flash forward 20 years, I'm the
one working at NASA. She's not. [00:37:00]
Matt: Yes. Oh, all those teachers who must be kicking themselves.
Yeah. They're like, they're like agents who said, I don't think you're going to
make it or. This song sounds dumb and then they
Keith: exactly exactly
Matt: years later, it's being inducted into the rock and roll Hall of Fame and
there you go. Yeah. Oh, well, this has been a really fun time. Thank you so
much for coming on.
And uh, yes, I, I may have to just, yeah, we've been talking a long time here. I
may have to split this into two podcasts, but I'm happy to do that. And yes, I'd
like, uh, that would mean, uh, an astrobiology talk would be like the trilogy.
Keith: We could, sure, I'm happy to do this, because like I said, I'm supposed to
be retired now, and retired people like to talk a lot.
Matt: Oh god, I can't wait till I'm retired. I like to do that [00:38:00] now, but
yeah,
Keith: you're busier. You're busier when you're retired than you were when you
work. Yes.
Matt: Yes. My parents have demonstrated that like to me. I've seen that in
action. It's like, when do you guys sleep? I assume you do. Yeah. Okay, well,
yeah, I'll, uh, I'll, uh, contact you with some, uh, uh, schedule proposals, what
have you.Um, how do I, my producer friends, my
Keith: producer friends are told
Matt: me,
Keith: you know, Oh, I wish we could call you Keith, but we got to talk about,
you know, whatever.
Matt: Yep. Well, yeah. Well, if I had any kind of poll in Washington, I think,
yeah, that's a, uh, yes. Keith Cowling is coming here to address all of you about,
uh, space and what you're doing wrong.
And yes, by the end, if you haven't capitulated and just said, okay, okay.
Keith: Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to do what he says. I've, I've, [00:39:00] I've,
I've outlasted six administrators, so
Matt: he
Keith: ain't going nowhere.
Matt: I'd be amazed if any of you want to. Yeah. Okay. So, yes, I'll, I'll be in
touch with Tex. I, I turned the recording on just because I, I neglected to do the
sign off here.
Oh, okay. Which is just, yeah, just to say, okay. Okay. Thank you so much for
coming on. I had a wonderful time talking to you. And as I said, I hope we can
have you back again to discuss. Astrobiology and your personal journeys, some
more because they sound really, really interesting.
Keith: Oh, I look forward to it.
I've had fun.
Matt: And to my listeners, thank you for joining us for this two part interview.
Stay tuned for more episodes, hopefully with additional special guests. I'm Matt
Williams, and this has been Stories from Space.